Complete Immersion-Where Even To Start?

[reboundstudent]

I don't see the efficiency of learning grammar from a corpus of sentences, most likely unrelated, rather than using someone else's hard work in digesting it down into a page or two in a good grammar book.

I don't want to get too bogged down in this either, but for me the AJATT approach seems very similar, to me, to using classroom study and supporting it with wide reading in Japanese. At the end of the day, whatever approach you will be using, you will be trying to learn new words and how to use them in sentences and how to understand other people when they use them in sentences.

Apart from the increased exposure to Japanese, I guess the biggest methodological difference, which you seem to object to the most, is that the guy from AJATT seems to suggest that the learner should choose which sentences to learn. The principle behind it is that by reading/listening to actual, contemporary Japanese, the learner will end up learning the sentences that are most useful when it comes to understanding actual Japanese. In order to do that they'll still have to look up words in dictionaries and maybe even find grammar explanations (certainly in the examples on his site, the flashcards explain the role of the various particles and differences in politeness levels etc.).

I guess that's why there's an argument that it is an efficient method. It would probably, for example, have saved me the effort of learning an outdated phrase like 'hon no kimochi desu', which just made my wife's family laugh at me, and I might not have bothered with 'nakereba narimasen', learning 'nai to ikemasen' instead.

In any case, the approach that I intend to take is to stick all the sentences from my various textbooks into Anki and learn them first, so I'll still be following a textbook approach and hoping to benefit from someone else's hard work.

I'm not sure how this relates to the original poster's dilemma apart from maybe to say to keep plugging away. It might be demoralising not to understand movies or whatever, but in real life you can ask people to speak slowly and rephrase things. My own recommendation would be to listen to stuff like the podcasts, which have readily available translations, so you can listen to them again after you know what they're saying. Hopefully the second time around you'll pick up more than the first time, and gradually your listening comprehension will improve.

The podcasts have been terrific. My biggest problem with listening comprehension is the only Japanese people I am around are Japanese middle schoolers, where even my 「何ですか？」gets bizarre looks. I've tried to ask them to slow it down, 「もう一度、ゆっくりおねがいします。」but they're not really interested in speaking slowly with a grown up foreigner.
As for Japanese friends, the only ones I've been able to make want to practice their English, and seem to view my wandering into their language as "cute but a waste of time."

Still, this thread has been really helpful, partially because one of the people who was really, really pushing AJATT method at me is a self-learner... he came to Japan with no previous knowledge in the language. I took Japanese in a classroom for 3 years, and although it might have proved ineffective for speaking Japanese, I can read and write pretty well. I really loved the classroom, because I had someone RIGHT THERE who I could ask questions or clarifications. Along with JPod, I also hired a tutor (unfortunately, only once a week for 75 minutes) and the difference in stress level is obvious. So your posts really brought it home that maybe AJATT just isn't as attractive a method for people who are either used to a classroom style, or use a teacher/textbook as motivation. I also have a once-a-day-lesson textbook that I love, whereas the AJATT guy hated it.

I'm just really glad to hear people have varying opinions on this. I've looked over AJATT, but because, like I said, I'm pretty proficient at writing and reading, what I love to do is blogs, letters, opinion forums, things like that. Yet looking over his website, he seemed to discourage any type of output of any kind for a long while, which left me feeling really discouraged. Also, my friends really made it out to be that I would go into the negatives if I didn't use AJATT.

On a sort of related note, I'd like to use an SRS anyway for kanji. I've tried Anki, but whenever I try to create decks, it will only let me put so many cards in. I tried both the actual software program (seriously, I only had 1 card in my deck, and then all the "add more" buttons would gray out) and the online version, where I couldn't edit half the words that were supposedly in my deck. I've just gotten pretty fed up with Anki. Do you guys have any recommendations?


PS: To Belton, don't blame my university degree. Most of the other students in my program either traveled to Japan in high school, or did study abroad for a semester to a year at a sister university. I couldn't come anywhere near to affording it, though.

[Belton]

reboundstudentさん、

wow, being in Japan you're already in the most immersive location you can get. I envy you that.

If Japanese middle school students are anything like the English schoolkids I come into contact with I doubt you're missing out on scintillating conversation. Kids can be pretty brutal and un-empathetic a lot of the time. The playground is often a sink or swim environment.

I'd suggest rather than friends you need a tandem partner. Teaching and correcting can put a strain on friendship activities anyhow. Find someone who will do the deal that every second meeting will be done in the other language. The "price" of tuition is to provide an equal service for your tandem partner.
http://tandem.ac-rouen.fr/etandem/ethilfen-en.html
Ideally you want someone whose English is on a similar level to your Japanese, so some sort of balance is maintained.

The other possible route is to talk to people who have no choice but to talk back to you.
Marky-star does it to taxi drivers apparently. Shop assistants, station employees, and the like. It can be a game for you. Ask for something you already know the answer to. It takes a bit of courage but strike up conversations with strangers. older people usually are more responsive. I found that usually someone would start talking to me in the sentou. Along the lines of you're far from home aren't you?
Become a regular face somewhere, a shop or café.

I've been lucky with my Japanese friends. I have one who put up with my Japanese efforts for half a day before I realised she could speak very good English! But I'm very grateful for her patience and respect for my efforts.

Anki, I could never get into it. It seems a bit linux-y. I use iFlash which is mac only, and in a slight development hiatus unfortunately.
I tend to keep rather a lot of information in the program so I like it's ability to have multiple "sides" for a card. I keep on meaning to knock up a relational database which might suit my needs more, but it's yet another project on the backburner.

I'm not sure about learning readings for a given kanji in isolation. Because I've never been able to figure out the rules as to when one reading is used in preference to another, beyond the broad ones of on and kun. If indeed there are rules. So I gather interesting sample words using the target kanji instead, simultaineously expanding my vocabulary.
I really recommend kakitori kun if you own a Nintendo DS. I think it's very accessible and great fun. As all words have definitions and the language is grade school level, you may even find you don't have to search for English definitions.

I'm curious, what's the lesson a day textbook. I'm a sucker for books!

[Taurus]

Yet looking over his website, he seemed to discourage any type of output of any kind for a long while, which left me feeling really discouraged.

I think a better way to look at it is not so much to discourage yourself from output, but not to beat yourself up if the output doesn't come naturally, and when you do start output to really make sure that you're speaking correctly. I think it's better to stick to simple phrases and short sentences that you know are correct than to get complicated sentences wrong and get into bad habits.

How is your self-learning friend's Japanese? I wonder if you could ask your kids if there are any books/games/films they'd recommend - you might find that if you follow their recommendations you might be exposed to Japanese that's closer to the stuff that they're using. Maybe not - just a thought.

I'm afraid I can't help you with your Anki problems. I've managed to compile a couple of decks that now have thousands of cards in them... Maybe you could pose a question on the guy's forum to see if it's a known problem?

[Taurus]

The other possible route is to talk to people who have no choice but to talk back to you.
Marky-star does it to taxi drivers apparently.

That is a great idea. All of the taxi drivers I've ever encountered in Japan have been really keen to chat, and all of them have also been very patient with my very embryonic Japanese...

[Belton]

And I think the key to sentence-mining is exactly as Belton said, except that you learn to use the grammar from other, unrelated sentences. E.g. "Can I have two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please?" + "That man doesn't have any talent but he has lots of money" = "I don't have any money but can I have two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please?"
Maybe a stupid example （笑）, and perhaps you were already implying that anyway Belton.

Sorry I'm straying off topic again. But I find this interesting.

I find examples often hard to come up with, probably why I came up with that weird one.
(it's the title of a TV program actually)
It sounds like Walterさん might have had the same spur of the moment problem.
I'm not criticising by the way.

However "Can I have two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please?" is a perfectly everyday (well maybe not everyday ;hiccup:) thing to say.

"I don't have any money but can I have two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please?"
is grammatically sound but would be an odd thing to say to a barman. He'd probably expand your vocabulary with at the mildest end of the spectrum "Naff orff, sunshine!"

But slightly rephrased it'd be a perfectly legitimate thing to say to a friend.
" I'm a bit skint at the moment but would you buy me a pint. (and I'll pay you back on Tuesday.) " lots of cultural knowledge needed. softening and explanations necessary as well. (asking for crisps as well would be pushing your luck)
It maybe illustrates the pitfalls when you start to compose your own phrases in a language.
Interesting.

[Javizy]

I don't see the efficiency of learning grammar from a corpus of sentences, most likely unrelated, rather than using someone else's hard work in digesting it down into a page or two in a good grammar book.
It would have taken me an age to work out the basics of verbs just from sentences but it seems you could pick it up very quickly after seeing the pattern spelt out for you in a grammar and in turn that knowledge would make the sentences more useful.

I agree with this. That's why I said I don't endorse AJATT. To tell the truth, I've hardly read any of the site because I find the guy annoying. All I took from it was the idea of sentence mining, and he didn't even come up with that.

My comparison was a bit ambiguous. By 'learn-it-as-you-see-it grammar/vocabulary', I meant seeing things in comics, books, etc, and learning them either right then or making a note for later. I'm always recommending the grammar dictionaries by Seiichi Makino, because they let you do exactly that.

The idea of understanding anything close to the amount of information in those dictionaries by viewing however many example sentences seems ridiculous to me. There are so many closely related expressions, and occasions when you have to use or can't use something "just because". How can it possibly be detrimental to read an expert explanation, and then start exposing yourself to real-life examples?

Sentence mining, for me, is all about reading kanji, and sharpening up your recognition. I don't usually add a sentence unless it has at least a couple of kanji words that I don't know. I don't take grammar or vocabulary into consideration, although lots of passive vocabulary, and an increasing amount of active, are welcome side-effects. It generally only takes a few reviews to remember them, and you have the added security that Anki won't let you forget them (at least not for long).

[Airth]

I can't help but feel that there is a certain amount of misunderstanding of the AJALT 'method'. It sounds like some people are getting put off by the style of writing on the blog and so perhaps haven't taken time to digest what he's actually saying. If you can't get into it, well, fair enough; but I think he has some valuable advice. Some of the things he seems to be advocating are:

Do what you enjoy.
If it gets boring do something else.
Stop depending on your native language as soon as you can.
Surround yourself with as much Japanese in as many different forms as possible.
Don't mine for sentences, let them come to you.
Use an SRS to ensure what you pick up eases into long term memory.
The only things that should be in your SRS are things you want to be there.
Enjoy the process, remove barriers to learning, and make it as easy as you can for yourself.

It certainly works for me.

As far as grammar goes, I'm pretty sure he stuffed his SRS full of example sentences from grammar books supported by English explanations in the early stages.

I think the thing is, simply take whatever elements work for you, mix it up with whatever ideas you have, and just get on with it. It's nothing other than the more you immerse yourself, the more you'll find Japanese just becomes a part of you.

[reboundstudent]

Do what you enjoy.
If it gets boring do something else.
Stop depending on your native language as soon as you can.
Surround yourself with as much Japanese in as many different forms as possible.
Don't mine for sentences, let them come to you.
Use an SRS to ensure what you pick up eases into long term memory.
The only things that should be in your SRS are things you want to be there.
Enjoy the process, remove barriers to learning, and make it as easy as you can for yourself.

It certainly works for me.

Which is awesome, that it works for you.
But I find the whole "do something you enjoy" so vague that I want to bang my head against a table.

I really don't get it. I don't. The things I enjoy become infuriating when I attempt to integrate them into Japanese study.

Here was my attempt at "enjoying" Japanese.
Hey, I like to read books. Awesome, I'll pick up this book. Its cover looks kinda cool. But, darn it, I don't understand that sentence. Or that one. Or the one after that. It isn't that I become bored. It's that I become unbearably frustrated.
Okay, I like watching TV. But I have no idea how to watch Japanese TV. Where can you even get a listing of Japanese shows? I could try watching anime, that's easily avaliable... But oh, okay, this one has 6 guys sitting around a table talking for 15 minutes about something... something... maybe that was an English word?... something... Okay, let's try the next anime... 5 minutes in, there's a big boobed chick in very little clothing dancing around and squeaking... something... ANNND... done.

I fully admit, I like my learning, and I like my entertainment, in two seperate little boxes. I enjoy something when I ALREADY understand it, when my mind is deeply involved. Taking things I learn in a classroom setting, or tutor session, and applying them to the real world is 10 times more enjoyable than suffering through a television program that I don't understand (or I might, if I had any idea what the heck was going on.)

Which I meant to kind of be the original point of my post. He says do things you enjoy... he says immerse yourself... but where in the world do you find materials to immerse yourself in? Do you spend money on books and CDs and anime and movies that you might end up hating-or do you love them JUST because they're in Japanese?

[Taurus]

I really don't get it. I don't. The things I enjoy become infuriating when I attempt to integrate them into Japanese study.

Here was my attempt at "enjoying" Japanese.
Hey, I like to read books. Awesome, I'll pick up this book. Its cover looks kinda cool. But, darn it, I don't understand that sentence. Or that one. Or the one after that. It isn't that I become bored. It's that I become unbearably frustrated.

That's a shame. It's difficult, certainly, but I think you should try to stick with it for a while to see if you can get beyond the frustration.

My own first experience, the other day, was trying to read a *very* simple kid's book called Gongitsune. It took me about an hour to go through the first, very short page (it was actually more difficult because a lot of it was in hiragana, which made looking stuff up in a dictionary quite difficult, and few textbooks teach you the words you need to understand stories about mischievous foxes scrabbling around in the dirt and causing trouble by stealing chilis etc.). I went through each sentence, looking everything up (and occasionally bothering my wife) till I understood it. Then I read it and re-read it till I understood it some more, and I entered all of those sentences into my Anki deck. Then the next day I did it all for the second page (though that took about half as long). And now I can read that first page, and the second page. And it feels like a small step but, like in the film, a lot of small steps will get you where you want to be, eventually.

[QuackingShoe]

Which I meant to kind of be the original point of my post. He says do things you enjoy... he says immerse yourself... but where in the world do you find materials to immerse yourself in? Do you spend money on books and CDs and anime and movies that you might end up hating-or do you love them JUST because they're in Japanese?

This is one of the reasons it's frequently advised that you get stuff in Japanese that you know you already enjoy in English. Both because you already understand the plot, which makes comprehension easier in general, and because... you already know you enjoy it. Get the Japanese dubbing of The Matrix, etc. I'd already seen quite a few anime in English (well, subtitled), well before I started learning Japanese, so why not watch them again unsubtitled? Heck, if it's something new you're curious about, you might go out of your way to read some excerpts from the book or watch the first episode or two in English just to see if you'll enjoy it before slogging through it.
This isn't something I personally do much. In general, I just wade through stuff I don't like in Japanese to find stuff I do like. But if you find it that frustrating, it seems like something to do.
Also, no, I at least most certainly cannot enjoy something purely because it's in Japanese. On the contrary, while I do enjoy Japanese media, and it's the biggest thing that got me into learning the language, I'm a strict devotee of the idea that 90%+ of absolutely everything is trash. I think this may hold even more true for Japanese material Anyway, this is why I personally have never read any of those kid books or classic fairy tales or whatever. I find that stuff boring as hell in English, so easier to read or not, there's no possible way I'm gonna read them in Japanese.

[Belton]

It sounds like some people are getting put off by the style of writing on the blog and so perhaps haven't taken time to digest what he's actually saying.

too right. His abrasive style gets in the way of getting any message across,
Maybe there's someone with a plainer style explaining it somewhere.
what can you do?

"enjoying" Japanese.

Reading.
I suggest the intensive reading method. Of which Rule 1 is read books appropriate to your level. Rule 2 is don't use a dictionary. All very catch 22 it seems. But the principle is to develop strategies for dealing with unknown words by using the clues in the known words surrounding them. The problem is finding material at a level you can deal with.
I like this series. The content isn't exactly exciting but there is pleasure to be had from actually reading.
「レベル別日本語多読ラブリー」
http://www.ask-digital.co.jp/tadoku/index.html

Another route is what seems to have worked for Javizy-san and others. Do the Heisig thing and it opens up meaning in texts and therefore may allow you to tackle more mainstream "authentic" texts while you learn the readings of kanji. (As yet I can't get over the mnemonic hurdle, so I can't say I've gone this route, for now I'm happier with radicals and readings.)

Another strategy if you're going to use a dictionary a lot is to read online. At least it speeds up the search process. There's a site called Lingq http://www.lingq.com/ that might help.

Watching TV
Again I think your pleasure might be had from figuring stuff out and better in short bursts. What I liked to watch on my visits were Sesame Street-like kids TV on NHK in the morning. English teaching programs on NHK at night. usually very little English! News magazine shows- they have lots of on screen text that helped me figure stuff out. Game shows because watching *other* peoples pain is always funny on Japanese TV. Adverts.

I watch Japanese movies for pleasure. I use the English subs. Sometimes I'll watch scenes again in Japanese. When I buy Japanese DVDs I get the bonus of Japanese subs to help me out. I couldn't watch a whole movie that way. I don't like dubbed movies. I think the same might hold true for Japanese dubs of English films.

Overall, I think you probably have a lot of knowledge, you have a degree in Japanese after all. It seems what you lack is probably practice at speaking and listening.
You're already in an immersive environment.
So what if your accent or vocabulary or grammar or speed isn't perfect. Embrace your gaijin-ness. Enjoy being in Japan and don't beat yourself up because of someone elses opinions on how to learn Japanese.
You have the ability to communicate, I know it. I'm sure eventually through use you can go from survival to a skill allowing social integration. People do it all the time around the world in many languages.

If it were me I'd concentrate on my needs rather than my desires.
Getting food, getting the train, dealing with various companies and government agencies. Avoiding culture shock. Working out strategies for using what I do know and can understand.
Then I'd branch out and expand "survive" into how I can make things more pleasant for myself by speaking Japanese.

I know I couldn't do Japanese 24/7. I enjoy English too.

There must be a relationship between time spent learning Japanese, actively and passively, and how fast you can improve. But quality of study must also factor in. If you're constantly getting frustrated and finding it unenjoyable you need to change direction slightly. The important thing is not to give up. Do what you can, and accept what you can't do at the moment...

[Taurus]

Maybe there's someone with a plainer style explaining it somewhere.

If you haven't already followed the AJATT guy's links to the original Antimoon site, you should do because it has a lot of useful information. It's targeted at learners of English so not all of it is relevant, but it gives a calmer, slightly more methodical overview of the sentence mining/immersion methods.

Personally, I like the AJATT guy's style. I guess I just like abrasive...

[Javizy]

My own first experience, the other day, was trying to read a *very* simple kid's book called Gongitsune. It took me about an hour to go through the first, very short page (it was actually more difficult because a lot of it was in hiragana, which made looking stuff up in a dictionary quite difficult, and few textbooks teach you the words you need to understand stories about mischievous foxes scrabbling around in the dirt and causing trouble by stealing chilis etc.). I went through each sentence, looking everything up (and occasionally bothering my wife) till I understood it. Then I read it and re-read it till I understood it some more, and I entered all of those sentences into my Anki deck. Then the next day I did it all for the second page (though that took about half as long). And now I can read that first page, and the second page. And it feels like a small step but, like in the film, a lot of small steps will get you where you want to be, eventually.

One of the first things I tried reading was a children's book called ぼくは王さま, and like you, it took me a long time just to get through a couple of pages. There was some reward in it, but it wasn't exactly an interesting book, and ended up becoming more frustrating/boring than anything.

I found children's comics like Doraemon much more accessible, since the language is delivered in short speech-bubble segments with furigana instead of just plain hiragana. The pictures help you deduce more about the situation (and remember words in some cases), and it's actually quite entertaining for a kids comic, which is probably why サラリーマン still read it on the train or whatever Another advantage is the everyday nature of the conversation, which wasn't the case in the kids' books I had.

You can also find a lot of the stories in anime form on Youtube for listening practice. This is what I was recommending to the original poster: if you can find some manga you find entertaining that was also turned into an anime, you essentially have a frame-by-frame transcript of each episode at your disposal.

[Airth]

Here was my attempt at "enjoying" Japanese.
Hey, I like to read books. Awesome, I'll pick up this book. Its cover looks kinda cool. But, darn it, I don't understand that sentence. Or that one. Or the one after that. It isn't that I become bored. It's that I become unbearably frustrated.

Okay, I like watching TV. But I have no idea how to watch Japanese TV. Where can you even get a listing of Japanese shows? I could try watching anime, that's easily avaliable... But oh, okay, this one has 6 guys sitting around a table talking for 15 minutes about something... something... maybe that was an English word?... something... Okay, let's try the next anime... 5 minutes in, there's a big boobed chick in very little clothing dancing around and squeaking... something... ANNND... done.

I fully admit, I like my learning, and I like my entertainment, in two seperate little boxes. I enjoy something when I ALREADY understand it, when my mind is deeply involved. Taking things I learn in a classroom setting, or tutor session, and applying them to the real world is 10 times more enjoyable than suffering through a television program that I don't understand (or I might, if I had any idea what the heck was going on.)

Which I meant to kind of be the original point of my post. He says do things you enjoy... he says immerse yourself... but where in the world do you find materials to immerse yourself in? Do you spend money on books and CDs and anime and movies that you might end up hating-or do you love them JUST because they're in Japanese?

I understand how you feel. I've felt it myself and wondered if I'd ever stop banging my head against the nearest table. But somehow I always managed to pick myself up, find something else to read/listen to/talk about, and I finally feel as if I'm on the downhill slope to fluency. It's taken eight years.

The first thing I thought when I read your post is that you aren't being specific enough in what it is you enjoy. I don't think it's enough to just say you like reading or TV and then expect to 'enjoy' it in Japanese. The question is what do you like within that form of entertainment? The next thing is to then not try and do something overly ambitious, otherwise, as you rightly observed, it all ends in frustration.

Here's an example of something I did: I like photography and I like nature/animals, so I started off by reading anything I could find on the nature photographer Hoshino Michio. I went to his exhibitions, I read about him on the internet, I talked about him to anyone who would care to listen, and I'm still trying to read his books - but - his books are so damn difficult that it drives me up the wall. So, through Hoshino I found another photographer Mitsuaski Iwago and stumbled across his blog (http://www.tfm.co.jp/iwago/) and related podcasts (http://www.tfm.co.jp/podcasts/iwago/) - I found I could listen to and read along with easily digestable, fascinating stories of his travels around the world. It's something that I can't get in English, something that I was genuinely interested in trying to understand, and something that I could find a practical application for in my everyday life.

Another point I noticed is that you said you enjoy applying things you learned in the classroom to the real world. Well, that's perfect, isn't it? It seems a lot of people confuse 'enjoy learning' with 'entertainment'. If you enjoy some element of your study routine then you should try and cultivate it. Everyone used to tell me it was a waste of time learning kanji individually and banged on about learning them in context. The problem was, I loved using my kanji flashcards and used to carry them with me everywhere for about five years. I did it because I enjoyed it, and while I listened to and considered other people's advice I chose to dismiss it because learning in context was such a chore at that time. I no longer use the cards but they served me well, and they made the process of learning fun and achievable for me.

It sounds like you care about learning Japanese, and have a real desire to push on and master it. I think that's all you need. Your drive will guide you to material that will help you achieve your goal. You will be fluent, it just takes time.

[johnpa]

I watched the interview and read some of the website. It does sound a bit far fetched, and I can't agree with the notion that tons of "input" will automatically lead to natural "output". Maybe I'm biased, but I can't imagine learning a language without drills. Especially Japanese which has such a unique grammatical structure.
On the other hand I don't think output should be forced.
My tutor makes me keep a journal and I frankly think it's a waste of time. Because I simply don't know enough Japanese to properly formulate my thoughts. I spend one hour struggling over a piece of text that he rips to shreds in less than two minutes.
If I spend the same hour reading or watching anime, I pick up words and reinforce sentence patterns that I can use in conversation.
No mater how many times I've been corrected, I continue to mix-up the active and passive forms of verbs that I've picked out of a dictionary. But I seem to have no problem with verbs that I've picked up from JapanesePod dialogues or Japanese programing.