1 hour per day

[Saiyan]

I've asked this question on another site and got a cold answer. I hope I'll get some realistic answers here!

Given my busy schedule, I can afford only 1 hour of studying japanese everyday. And I simply can't afford buying textbooks, as in India, they are very expensive. So you can leave out getting a premium subscription on this site too!

So with my 1 hour of studying, no matter how long it takes, and with only the internet to help me, will i be able to learn the language till at least JLPT 4 level? i want to reach a level where i can easily read novels in japanese, speak fluently and also write in all the three ways.

is this possible guys?

[wccrawford]

You didn't give a timeframe... If the timeframe is 'eventually', then yes. It's possible.

If the timeframe is 'before December', the answer is 'no way.'

And I'll be honest: You -can- learn Japanese for free from the net, but you'll have a lot easier time, and faster progress, if you shell out some cash. I'm not recommending any 1 thing to buy, because different methods work better for different people, but paying for study materials will help you a lot better than relying on the free stuff you can find.

[Belton]

My opinion is this --

possible but it will take time.

Your hour a day would have to be focused and consistent. Obviously the more you can immerse yourself in a language the quicker you can learn it.

I think with a bit of research you may be able to find enough free resources on the Internet at a beginner level (and Intermediate level too, they get scarcer for advanced levels I think.)

I think JLPT4 by December 2009 is feasible. (JLPT4 is the lowest level by the way. 1 is the highest)

Fluency. You'll need to find people to talk to. using Skype maybe.
I'd say the average person studying intensively full time takes at least 2 or 3 years to approach fluency. (There are some people who would claim exceptions to this, but they are outside the average I'd say)

Reading novels at an adult level. Well there are two components here.

One is having an adult understanding of the grammar and vocabulary. That'll take the same time as becoming fluent really, maybe less as reading is a more passive skill.

The second component is the writing system. Javizy-san can tell you about Heisig. (If successful perhaps the fastest way.) He said elsewhere it took him 7 months to complete. I'm not sure how much time daily that represents. And even then at the end of that time I would say you only have the basis for reading; you still need vocabulary and grammar. see component 1.

Writing using kanji has similar problems as reading, maybe more as it is a productive skill rather than a passive skill. But it is possible to write only using kana. Although it wouldn't be what a literate adult would do, you can make yourself understood. (Books have been written in kana by otherwise uneducated Japanese)

But to be honest you are focused on the final goal, which is a bit distant when you're starting off. You might find other short term goals when you start studying. A lot of the enjoyment you can get is in the process.
I see language learning as a journey without a destination. It tends to go on for ever, there isn't really a "I know everything about Japanese" moment.

If you've only 1 hour a day, that's what it'll take you. You won't really know until you do it. and you'll achieve more than by doing 0 hours a day.

Good luck.

[Saiyan]

thanks for the details Belton-san! Yes i was indeed referring to level 4 and not 1 I am also looking for a way to get hold of a good affordable text book. I hope I succeed soon.

[andamanislander]

thanks for the details Belton-san! Yes i was indeed referring to level 4 and not 1 I am also looking for a way to get hold of a good affordable text book. I hope I succeed soon.

I don't think you can get a better textbook than the PDFs on this site. You can get a free trial account and download a bunch of them.

As for learning to read easily in one hour per day? It's certainly doable, but very unlikely to be successful in less than 2 years at the very least. You'll spend 6 months just memorizing kanji through Heisig long before you know how to actually read any of them.

Japanese takes time, there's just no way around it.

[Javizy]

An hour a day 'book study' is a pretty decent amount, but if you include listening to Jpod lessons, shadowing, flashcard reviews, etc, it seems less and less effective. If you set study time is limited, you need to make the most of other opportunities.

Today, I spent an hour and a half listening to various lessons and stuff, thanks to the s**t bus service in my area, and I got in 10 minutes of shadowing while ironing my clothes as well. What would otherwise be a frustrating waste of time becomes an opportunity to study Japanese. If you have a good mobile phone, you can even use Anki on the go.

As for re-sources, I find the web bitty and lacking for the most part. If you can only get one book I'd recommend A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, which has just about everything you need for JLPT 4+3. I studied online for months before I got this, and had about 100 "Jesus Christ, I didn't know that" moments about grammar I thought I knew inside out.

I mentioned shadowing above, but if you're not familiar with it, there's a nice explanation on this page. It's a great way to train your accent and intonation, while also drilling useful phrases and structures into your head.

He said elsewhere it took him 7 months to complete. I'm not sure how much time daily that represents.

The 7 months I stated in regard to Heisig was an estimate, since I had a bunch of breaks from it on account of RSI problems. I'm the last person to give a decent timeframe, but the majority of testimonials I've heard are around the 6-month mark, with about 30 minutes of study a day. The speed wasn't the priority for me, but more the reliability and the fact I could do it with the minimal amount of writing. If I'd had to do it the traditional way, I would've been forced to give up, since it would've been pointless learning a language I couldn't read.

[Saiyan]

I'm not aiming at level 4 very soon, as I have to concentrate on my other studies for now. Maybe in three years, I will want to take the JLPT Level 4. I found out that luckily, it is held in my country India at a city near mine so there is no hurry there! So, using only the internet, in 3 years, and of course, with dedicated study, will I be able to clear level 4?

[Javizy]

I'm not aiming at level 4 very soon, as I have to concentrate on my other studies for now. Maybe in three years, I will want to take the JLPT Level 4. I found out that luckily, it is held in my country India at a city near mine so there is no hurry there! So, using only the internet, in 3 years, and of course, with dedicated study, will I be able to clear level 4?

If it took you 3 years to reach Level 4 proficiency, it'd probably take you about 20 to read a short novel. Level 4 is so easy it's hardly worth paying the money to take it. After 1000 hours of study, you'll be able to breeze through Level 3, if not be able to tackle Level 2. So you can afford to set your targets a bit higher over the next 3 years

My friend was telling me her English proficiency test had writing and speaking sections, whereas the JLPT is all multiple choice, so theoretically you could score 25% by randomly ticking boxes. You have to conjure very little from your own memory, since the answers are laid there before you. It's a sham of a test, but at least it's easy to pass, I guess.

[Saiyan]

I didn't know level 4 was that easy! even so, I'd still take it only in 3 years 'coz due to a number of reasons. i guess till then I'll also start preparing for level 3 in these 3 years then.

as for the ticking part, i think i'll feel better if i do the right ticking and not just testing my luck. ever since i found out i had a JLPT test center in my country and in a neighbouring state, i've changed my goal to conquer all the levels in it, so whatever i do, i want to do it right!

[annie]

Studying for longer amounts of time isn't always that productive. I think an hour a day is more than enough time to devote to studying Japanese. I find that if I study for 15 minutes several times a day, I'll remember more tomorrow than if I studied for an hour straight.

I also agree that JLPT 4 isn't worth the money, it's better just to start with 3. But, if you don't plan to use Japanese professionally, even level 1 is a waste of money.

[Saiyan]

Studying for longer amounts of time isn't always that productive. I think an hour a day is more than enough time to devote to studying Japanese. I find that if I study for 15 minutes several times a day, I'll remember more tomorrow than if I studied for an hour straight.

I also agree that JLPT 4 isn't worth the money, it's better just to start with 3. But, if you don't plan to use Japanese professionally, even level 1 is a waste of money.

wow that was a little of encouraging and discouraging!

I haven't decided whether I want to use Japanese professionally or not, but I want to get a firm grip on it first, hence the prep for JLPT. As for the matter of money, well, I spent Rs.800/- for writing an engineering entrance exam here in India, and the fee for JLPT is Rs.400/- Now, isn't that a fair deal?

[Belton]

My friend was telling me her English proficiency test had writing and speaking sections, whereas the JLPT is all multiple choice, so theoretically you could score 25% by randomly ticking boxes. You have to conjure very little from your own memory, since the answers are laid there before you. It's a sham of a test, but at least it's easy to pass, I guess.

I agree that perhaps after 2 to 3 years of study JLPT3 is probably the better goal.

(drifting off topic ごめん)

I don't agree that JLPT is easy or a sham. Something like 40 to 50% of the people that sit it fail. (If I had a past paper to hand I could look up the actual figures)
While multiple choice is perhaps easier than a written answer the way they are set includes distractors or "tricks" to throw you off. The usual advice on multiple choice exam technique is to ignore the answers at first and answer the question as if it were a written one.
I wouldn't rely on statistics and the pass mark is 60% anyhow. (A friend was pretty disgusted to score way below the statistical average in her listening on JLPT. Maybe the sample wasn't large enough to level out at 25%.) And on the listening component the multiple choice just makes it a bit more difficult, or at least doesn't help much beyond getting a chance to guess. But hey in most of my Japanese situations I'm using guesswork too.

I also agree that an internationally recognised test with a written component and an oral component would be more attractive. And more expensive to administer and mark.
JLPT is about the only game in town. Even the business version isn't as widely recognised. The kanken is very focused on kanji but is a very interesting test, testing penmanship reading and writing of characters and for non-Japanese vocabulary too. But outside of Japan it may be hard to find an exam centre. Outside the UK an A level is unknown, likewise Leaving Cert, and other nationally based tests. A degree is in an entirely different league, and not an exam you can just sit without first attending an institute. So JLPT is convienient and not really that expensive compared to some other exam fees.

Exams are all very well but language is a very practical and personal skill. It'll be tested in real life situations. Then the question is this; is your Japanese sufficient for your needs. As a tourist, an ELT, watching movies, reading books, talking to your spouse and in-laws, etc. etc.

That said JLPT is an effort to study for and an achievement to pass. I don't have much to show for it other than some certificates on my wall and a temporary warm fuzzy feeling but I'm glad I sat them. I'm proud to have passed them. It helped focus my study.
It saddens me when people say JLPT4 is worthless. Or go on about the mismatch of JLPT and real world usage. It is what it is. I'm glad it's there and has a range of levels for people to sit, not everyone can be a Japanese genius quickly.

[プチクレア]

(OT) I'm far too lazy to take the JLPT.... I passed level 4 in high school because my japanese teacher registered the whole class to take the exam, and I just can't bring myself to take the other levels.... lol...(/OT)

Saiyanさん, it is possible to learn a lot from the internet. I studied japanese in high school for 3 years at 3 hours a week, which put me around JPT level 3. After that I didn't really study japanese for 7 years (just tried to stay at the same level, not learn anything new). After that I started studying with this site (since its beginning in december 2005) almost exclusively (no lessons, no other textbooks, except for kanji learning), and I've been reading japanese novels for about 18 months now (I read 海辺のカフカ last summer, and this year I'm reading ねじまき鳥クロニクル, also by Murakami Haruki, among other things.) Since I've started studying seriously again, I've done about 1h30 everyday listening to the podcasts, reading the PDFs, studying kanjis, writing my blog in japanese on Mixi, etc.... So I guess with absolutely no prior knowledge of the language, at 1 hour a day, you could start reading novels in 5-7 years...

The really important thing is to study regularly, everyday. I learned the Joyo kanjis in about a year, studying 10 new kanjis a day 5 days a week (I didn't use Heisig, but that's a matter of personal choice). I still review my kanji flashcards everyday (50-100 cards a day), if I stop for a month, I forget about 25% of the kanjis I'm supposed to know.

If you can, you should try to use the PDFs (that's a basic subscription), and combined with the book Javizyさん mentioned, you should be fine. Another important thing in my opinion is to try and learn the kana as soon as possible, and rely as little as possible on romaji. When I was in high school we spent the first 2 weeks learning kana and nothing else, and it's very easy. The romaji are an easy way out, and if you don't learn some japanese script very early, you will soon be stopped in your progress.

[Javizy]

The really important thing is to study regularly, everyday. I learned the Joyo kanjis in about a year, studying 10 new kanjis a day 5 days a week (I didn't use Heisig, but that's a matter of personal choice). I still review my kanji flashcards everyday (50-100 cards a day), if I stop for a month, I forget about 25% of the kanjis I'm supposed to know.

Is the part about forgetting 25% an exaggeration? I'd find that soul destroying. I really think there should be a lot more research carried out on mnemonic systems like Heisig, not only for the benefit of foreign learners, but also for use in native schooling. There's the debate about whether it works on not, but I'm pretty sure it could be scientifically proven to be valid.

Recently there was an article in the paper about a guy who could memorise a 200 digit number and the order of multiple decks of shuffled cards. He described a technique similar to Heisig which involved creating mental images from clusters of numbers/card combinations which 'interacted' in such a way that he could recall the entire thing.

Currently my 'A week and over' Anki statistic is 95% (5684/5993), where most of the errors are made up of confusing characters with similar meanings or where I've needed to rework half-assed mnemonics; problems that solved themselves along the way. Something that impressed me even more was that although I didn't start using Anki (or reviewing at all :-s) until about 6 months after beginning the book, I could still remember 70% of the characters, even those I hadn't seen since making the mnemonic. Naturally, I wouldn't recommend such an unorganised approach.

I don't know where I'm going with this exactly, but it's worked so well for me and so many others that I really feel beginners should be encouraged as much as possible to try it. It doesn't have to be seen as a miracle when a Westerner writes his address in kanji, even if the Japanese teachers who continue to use the same old "tried and tested" methods, which never worked in the first place, would argue otherwise.

[プチクレア]

Javizyさん, by 25% I meant that I confuse 25% of the (mostly) on reading. For example, not remembering if the on-reading for 尽 is ジン or シン. While I always remember the meaning, and as such can understand words perfectly, my ability to correctly "read" the word gets sloppy.

As for Heisig, I'm not advising against it. I have tried it, in fact, several times, for up to 2 months at a time... But I could never get it to work perfectly for me. It may have to do with the fact that even though I made my own mnemonics in French, the Heisig book I used was in English, and at some point it got in the way. It may also have to do with the fact that I've always had trouble with mnemonics, whatever the subject was. Rote learning works better for me. I think people learning kanjis should try Heisig, but that they should know that if they have trouble with it, there are other valid ways to learn the kanjis. Learning kanjis is a daunting task, and finding that the method every one talks about doesn't suit you can be discouraging ( I'm talking from personal experience).