puzzled over personal pronouns

[johnpa]

Pardon my ignorance. My only contact with Japanese culture is J-Pop, J-Dorama and Anime. I've tried to make some Japanese friends for conversation practice , but I don't know them well enough to ask potentially sensitive questions.

If terms like お前 and おれ are supposed to be inappropriate even for casual conversation, why do J-Dorama and Anime heroes use them even with people they've just met. Is this to portray them as rough and combative characters?
Another term I hear a lot is 僕 (pronounced ぼく). And I know a Japanese guy that uses it from time to time, so I guess it's OK. But, when I looked it up, one of the definitions is "manservant". Is this supposed to be taken as irony? or a form of humility? or what?

[jkid]

I wouldn't say おれ is inappropriate in casual situation. It is the case that おれ is an extremely informal way for a man to refer to himself. It is not inappropriate in the right situation (for example, when conversing with very close friends). It just depends on the "image" of yourself you want to put across to the people you are speaking with. おれ can make you sound a little rough. Like you say, perhaps a bit combative in certain (less appropriate) situations.

I don't know much about お前 so I can't comment with certainty. However, from what I know お前 is a masculine, derogatory way to refer to someone.

Now 私 (わたし) is the most commonly used personal pronoun and is a very polite way to refer to yourself regardless of gender. 僕 (ぼく) is a "slight" step below 私 in terms of politeness but is still considered to be polite and is regularly used by men to refer to themselves. I don't think it is rude in any way. It is perfectly acceptable for a man to use to refer to himself. From my experience some teachers even tell their male students to refer to themselves using 僕 right off the bat as it is more masculine than 私.

[Psy]

If terms like お前 and おれ are supposed to be inappropriate even for casual conversation, why do J-Dorama and Anime heroes use them even with people they've just met. Is this to portray them as rough and combative characters?

Nail on the head. Anime/Drama != Real Life. You'll leave a really bad impression if you go around doing this with people you don't know well. However, they aren't inappropriate in casual conversation if you truly are close to those with whom you're speaking, especially if it's a group of guys.

Another term I hear a lot is 僕 (pronounced ぼく). And I know a Japanese guy that uses it from time to time, so I guess it's OK. But, when I looked it up, one of the definitions is "manservant". Is this supposed to be taken as irony? or a form of humility? or what?

僕 is just a boyish way of saying "I," which is somewhat less formal than 私 (but still polite) but not rough like おれ. I suppose you could liken it to the masculine version of あたし. I've heard it in a variety of situations, so unless you're in an area where you really need to be formal, you should be safe using it. Of course, there's nothing wrong with sticking with わたし.

*edit*
It appears we were writing at the same time, jkid.

*edit again*
Holy cow! That was post #500. I guess I'm officially a J-pod forum nerd now. 投稿ヲタク　バンザイ！！！

[jkid]

*edit*
It appears we were writing at the same time, jkid.

What are the odds?

[johnpa]

I suppose you could liken it to the masculine version of あたし.

Speaking of which... I've only heard this from pop singers. (Maybe because it flows smoother? Or is it considered cute?)
The personal pronoun I hear most, in pop songs, is あなた. The dictionary says it can also mean "dear", but I hear it in a lot of broken heart lyrics (At least they sound like broken heart lyrics to my limited comprehension. My Japanese is very poor so i jump to conclusions when I hear words like 涙 or phrases like こどくに立つ sung in a minor key.) All the lessons say you should limit the use of あなた, but I suppose you can't really use proper names in song lyrics. (Or maybe there's another reason?)

Anyway, thanks for the clarification.

[Psy]

Speaking of which... I've only heard this from pop singers. (Maybe because it flows smoother? Or is it considered cute?)

Probably because it (あたし) sounds particularly feminine, and the "新人類" (the new breed) of girls can be a lot less... reserved when it comes to proper spoken etiquette. The only time I heard this during my stay in Japan (which, granted, only dealt with a small slice of personal connections) was from a nice old lady.

The personal pronoun I hear most, in pop songs, is あなた. The dictionary says it can also mean "dear", but I hear it in a lot of broken heart lyrics (At least they sound like broken heart lyrics to my limited comprehension. My Japanese is very poor so i jump to conclusions when I hear words like 涙 or phrases like こどくに立つ sung in a minor key.) All the lessons say you should limit the use of あなた, but I suppose you can't really use proper names in song lyrics. (Or maybe there's another reason?)

In just about any song I can think of offhand, あなた refers to "significant male other" and きみ refers to "significant female other." There might be exceptions but i can't think of any right offhand. Granted, my knowledge of popular Japanese music is fairly limited. Still, a lot of those types of songs repeat the same kind of story.

[Javizy]

I don't know much about お前 so I can't comment with certainty. However, from what I know お前 is a masculine, derogatory way to refer to someone.

It's derogatory in certain situations, but with your friends it's probably on a similar level to おれ. I suppose you could see it as a masculine version of あんた; familiar with friends, extremely impolite to others. The catch with second person pronouns is that you have to take the other person's feelings into account. I remember Yuki saying that none of the girls he knew liked being called お前.

I think it's best to stick to using names for the second person, unless you are close enough to know that you can throw around お前 and stuff.

[markystar]

I remember Yuki saying that none of the girls he knew liked being called お前.

yes.
i've asked many girls about this because i overhear a lot of couples on the train or in the izakaya and the guys always refer to their girlfriend's as お前. when i asked my female friends, they said "i don't like being called お前 but all my guy friends call me it." i hear あたし quite a bit from girls 25 and under and also really old ladies.

recently, i've got about 4 girl friends who don't ever use personal pronouns around me. they simply use their name instead of あたし。

we've got a series coming up soon in which there is a girl who does this.

[jaboyak]

See, this is really interesting to me because I hear different things from just about everywhere.

My teacher always told the guys in my classes to use "boku" and the girls to use "watashi". He does say, though, that using names is much better when referring to someone else. "anata" is okay for couples and close friends, but that's about it.

おもしろそうですね。。。

[jkid]

My teacher always told the guys in my classes to use "boku" and the girls to use "watashi".

That is what I was taught and what I choose to do because boku is still polite.

[markystar]

generally speaking, you're safe with 僕, but if you enter a japanese company, there may be people to whom you can't even use 僕 without appearing self-centered. so at the risk of feeling emasculated, be prepared to serve up a 私 here and there.

the beauty of japanese is, if the context makes it clear, you can avoid the whole "which personal pronoun should i use" issue by controlling the conversation and just dropping the pronouns altogether (which we could never do in english).

that said, i also default to 僕 in unknown situations. tho, i probably use 俺 80% of the time.
but i'm VERY sensitive about overusing it.

[QuackingShoe]

He does say, though, that using names is much better when referring to someone else. "anata" is okay for couples and close friends, but that's about it.

Now, see, that's something I've taken to heart too, and almost always refer to people by name when I need to. But I get あなた'd all the time, so eh.