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The best way to learn kanji?

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nyappyrebecca
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The best way to learn kanji?

Postby nyappyrebecca » July 19th, 2008 6:37 pm

I think Hiragana and Katakana are pretty simple to learn, but the Kanji is a little harder. Although, it depends on how many strokes there are. It's harder for me to remember Kanji, though. Sometimes I forget what they mean or how to say them in Hiragana or Katakana. Any advice, please? What's the best way to learn Kanji?

Belton
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Postby Belton » July 19th, 2008 9:11 pm

I'm beginning to think "How to learn kanji" should be a stickied topic. or maybe a FAQ

http://www.japanesepod101.com/forum/vie ... php?t=3115
http://www.japanesepod101.com/forum/vie ... php?t=3213
http://www.japanesepod101.com/forum/vie ... php?t=2560
http://www.japanesepod101.com/forum/vie ... php?t=2091
http://www.japanesepod101.com/forum/vie ... php?t=1862

There are 3 schools of thought.

Heisig.
learn the English keywords of the individual everyday day use kanji. learn to write them. This is done by following a clever order that relies on you recognising components and using previously learnt kanji as components in new kanji. Stories are used as a memory aid and method of remembering meaning and shape.
after learning the English meanings you go back and learn the readings.
Its benefit is if you complete it it can quickly open up reading for you and may make it easier to put readings on kanji.

Text
Remembering the Kanji 1 James W. Heisig. pub: University of Hawaii Press
http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/pub ... anji_1.htm

In context
You learn by reading and by using. You learn readings by knowing the reading of kanji compounds in kanji from your vocabulary. and leverage this knowledge when you meet new kanji compounds. A drawback is it doesn't help in writing them.

Texts
(JLPT3 kanji by example) 3級編 例文で学ぶ漢字と言葉 - 西口 光一 (著) (スリーエーネットワーク)
Japanese Graded Readers http://www.ask-digital.co.jp/tadoku/index.html

Traditional School method.
You learn the stroke count, stroke order, radical, meaning, on yomi, kun yomi and some examples of a single kanji. you are introduced to kanji as they become useful in your vocabulary and simpler kanji are learnt first. Each kanji is written out a number of times to help familiarise yourself with it.

Text
Basic Kanji Vol 1 by Chieko Kano et al. (Bonjinsha Co. Ltd.)
漢字学習ステップ8級 published by: 日本漢宇能力検定協会
http://www.kanken.or.jp/tosyo/index.html

Flash cards are useful in all methods.

My preferred method is by reading and writing and playing Nintendo DS kanji titles


English words made only from twenty-six characters? Are English a bit lazy or what? We have fifty thousand characters in Chinese

— A Concise Chinese - English Dictionary for Lovers — Xiaolu Guo

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nyappyrebecca
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Postby nyappyrebecca » July 19th, 2008 9:33 pm

I don't remember so well with flashcards when it comes to Kanji. I can probably identify what it means in Hiragana using flashcards, but I won't remember how to write it as well.

Thank-you for the information.

WalterWills
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Postby WalterWills » July 19th, 2008 10:13 pm

You could always make your own flash cards and include the stroke-order on them.


Personally to study Kanji I'm going through the first 1000 or so Kanji from primary school and trying to learn the Kanji and build my vocabulary at the same time. With this method it's not always necessary to learn the meaning a particular Kanji because it usually becomes apparent through the words that you learn.


I was using the Heisig method, but I found it frustrating because I wasn't learning the pronounciations and new words at the same time. Also, while making my way through Heisig's book I was also learning the Kanji (pronounciations and words) of the 1st year: 子・天・雨・女, etc, and I noticed that I developed a familiarity with these Kanji similar to the familiarity one has with the English alphabet: "A" just looks like "A" for example- and while writing out the stories in Heisig's book, for the Kanji that I had already learnt I decided not to bother as I felt that I didn't need any help remembering that particular Kanji.

Whether or not this same familiarity will apply to the rest of the Kanji, I'll soon find out, so I haven't given up on the Heisig method completely.

nyappyrebecca
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Postby nyappyrebecca » July 19th, 2008 10:28 pm

You could always make your own flash cards and include the stroke-order on them .


As I said, flashcards don't really help me remember Kanji. Some of them yes but not the ones with a lot of stroke orders. I never thought to include the stroke order on the flashcards, though.

QuackingShoe
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Postby QuackingShoe » July 19th, 2008 11:31 pm

I think it's worth pointing out that, as the Heisig method involves learning Kanji through stories tailored to their components, it makes remembering how to write them incredibly easy. I believe the most complicated kanji components you ever encounter (as broken down by Heisig) are seven strokes, and they're pretty rare. And while the best method for going through Heisig probably involves the Reviewing the Kanji website's flashcards (http://kanji.koohii.com/), they're all production cards. That is, you get the keyword, and then have to remember how to write it, from a story/picture in your head detailing the components. Focusing on the writing this way is very useful, as it makes recognition much easier in all styles. Like you (at least from what I gather), I personally am almost incapable of even recognizing any kanji that I only know through sight, but am capable of clearly recognizing and acquiring vocabulary for any kanji I know how to write, which is at this point 1775. I'd really recommend giving it a try, as the sample PDF is free, covers, 276 or so kanji, and doesn't take very long to try out and decide if it's for you or not.

Good luck with however you proceed!

hatch_jp
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Postby hatch_jp » July 20th, 2008 4:53 am

In Japan, when we are children, we have homework everyday that we have to write Kanji down on a notebook more than several dozen times pronouncing it in my mind. This kinda homework is in common at elementary and junior high school in Japan.

nyappyrebecca
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Postby nyappyrebecca » July 20th, 2008 4:56 am

@ hatch_jp - How many words would you have to learn a day and about how long did you do it for?
If you are interested in studying, teaching, or translating Japanese please contact me.

hatch_jp
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Postby hatch_jp » July 20th, 2008 5:54 am

The number of kanji we learn at elementary school is 1006.
1st grade =80
2nd grade = 160
3rd grade = 200
4th grade = 200
5th grade =185
6th grade = 181

At junior high school, there are 939 kanji.

We have learnt about 2000 kanji, which are selected to be used routinely, for 9 years.

nyappyrebecca
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Postby nyappyrebecca » July 20th, 2008 5:58 am

Oh. Thank-you! :)
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Javizy
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Postby Javizy » July 20th, 2008 11:08 pm

QuackingShoe wrote:I think it's worth pointing out that, as the Heisig method involves learning Kanji through stories tailored to their components, it makes remembering how to write them incredibly easy. I believe the most complicated kanji components you ever encounter (as broken down by Heisig) are seven strokes, and they're pretty rare. And while the best method for going through Heisig probably involves the Reviewing the Kanji website's flashcards (http://kanji.koohii.com/), they're all production cards. That is, you get the keyword, and then have to remember how to write it, from a story/picture in your head detailing the components. Focusing on the writing this way is very useful, as it makes recognition much easier in all styles. Like you (at least from what I gather), I personally am almost incapable of even recognizing any kanji that I only know through sight, but am capable of clearly recognizing and acquiring vocabulary for any kanji I know how to write, which is at this point 1775. I'd really recommend giving it a try, as the sample PDF is free, covers, 276 or so kanji, and doesn't take very long to try out and decide if it's for you or not.

Good luck with however you proceed!


As before, I'll second this recommendation. Definitely give this a go before you get sucked in to the other mindnumbing "methods" (it's hard to classify writing out characters until you remember them a method).

Javizy
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Postby Javizy » July 20th, 2008 11:13 pm

hatch_jp wrote:The number of kanji we learn at elementary school is 1006.
1st grade =80
2nd grade = 160
3rd grade = 200
4th grade = 200
5th grade =185
6th grade = 181

At junior high school, there are 939 kanji.

We have learnt about 2000 kanji, which are selected to be used routinely, for 9 years.


At what point, if at all, do you learn 人名用 kanji then? Is it something you have to do by yourself? Proper nouns are a major headache in Japanese :?

untmdsprt
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Postby untmdsprt » July 21st, 2008 1:14 am

You could always move here and be forced to learn kanji! ;)

I've been using the Nintendo DS games, and also the WhiteRabbit press flash cards. They have the stroke order at the bottom of each card.

I've been learning kanji in context though. I've found it's harder for me to learn the kanji and all its readings instead of just learning how to pronounce it in the sentence.

Belton
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Postby Belton » July 21st, 2008 11:42 am

I don't think merely writing characters will make you memorise them.
Nor is it the sole part of how kanji are traditionally learnt. However it is an adjunct to memorising them and for Japanese schoolchildren at least, the ability to write them and good penmanship are useful skills.
Rote-memorisation is used in a lot of subject areas, or not-so-rote by using Flashcards.

Personally I like writing kanji. For it's own sake. I like Shodo. I like the shapes, I like the potential beauty in kanji. I like understanding the actual etymology of characters. I like finding out the actual names of the radicals. I like finding out the logic underlying them. I find it useful to learn their readings and learn the kanji I use day to day. Heisig I find didn't do this for me.

But I agree Heisig's worth a go. It might work for you.
It might help you "not forget" individual kanji.

I do think there is a natural progression in the, shall we call them, non-Heisig methods.
You start with simple characters describing natural phenomena such as 山、水、犬、人、母 and everyday activities 見る、読む、食べる where meanings are relatively easily ascribed to the shapes (象形), and work up to abstract or complex ideas and rarer characters 憲.

Generally you tend learn an English meaning first, then kun-yomi then on-yomi. Most likely using words that are in your own vocabulary. You can recognise, then read, then write. With the use of computers reading can be a productive skill in ensuring the IME's choice of kanji is correct.
I would say it's rare for someone to be able to recall amount of strokes or radical for a given character from memory. You are more likely to be able to stroke count and pick out a particular characters radical when you see it written. You are more likely to use general rules than to learn every individual kanji's stroke order.

Nor would it happen all at once. It's probably best to chunk the task. Working with groups of kanji you learn one thing at a time. Rather than everything about a character at once.
Groupings of kanji could be by shape or topic. or function.

With more complex kanji it might be worth chunking them as well. To see the components they are made of (hopefully from previous learnt characters) rather than the character as a whole. so you might see 懇 as comprising 豸(豕)、 艮(良) and  心、
you might remember it's reading コン as part of a word 懇話 [こんわ]friendly chat
and remember its general headword of sociable from this. or from the components 艮 (良) and 心、
If it's a kanji you use often or see often because perhaps your friends use it or it comes up in the subject matter of articles you are interested in you are more likely to remember it. (or if it's the name of your train station) I think you have stronger motivation and more hooks in your memory to learn and remember kanji you see and would make use of on a regular basis.

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Postby Psy » July 21st, 2008 5:20 pm

I hate to "Pull a Javizy" here by singing the praises of the Heisig method, but something in that review made me realize something: 100% of the negative commentary I've seen for Heisig are by those who haven't seen the method through to the end. That's every single one-- no exceptions. In the introduction it is stated quite plainly that the task of completing the book, despite the rapid rate given the material covered, is a still very difficult, and that one must remain steadfast and resolute to see it through. Since I am myself am one of these people, I'll make 2 points:

1) Results don't show until one nears the end. This is because the book progresses from simple to complicated, and many of the more common characters belong to the latter group. You need to have faith and continue moving forward to reap the rewards.

2) I can recognize every kanji in a newspaper. Let me write that again: I can recognize every kanji in a newspaper. This of course doesn't account for vocabulary, proper names or grammar, (though lately I'm gaining a decent handle of those as well) but even when I encounter a word I don't know, it's easy to look up, and as the word already looks familiar because I can recognize the characters, memorizing it is as easy as matching a sound to a meaning, rather than having to match it to a mess of strokes I've never seen before.

I suppose I could have saved a lot of typing by saying this: If you don't like it, fine. Do it your own way. But unless you've completed the method and can attest to the results yourself, don't gripe about an experience you haven't had.

Sorry to rant. Happy studies! 8)
High time to finish what I've started. || Anki vocabulary drive: 5,000/10k. Restart coming soon. || Dig my Road to Katakana tutorial on the App store.

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