Start Learning Japanese in the next 30 Seconds with
a Free Lifetime Account

Or sign up using Facebook

particle problems!!

Moderators: Moderator Team, Admin Team

japanapa
New in Town
Posts: 7
Joined: July 5th, 2008 9:35 am

particle problems!!

Postby japanapa » July 13th, 2008 8:02 am

[size=12」みなさん、こんにちは!! :D
ちょっとてつだってくれませんか。[/size]

Hi!
Can someone please explain what the difference of the two following particles does to the sentence?
1) 一時間いくらもらえる?
2一時間7ドルです。
Also, what does the で mean in this context and is it common to hear japanese people say英語話せない with a potention instead of が?

海外に住んでいる日本人英語話せない人もいる。

Thank you for helping me out!! :D

QuackingShoe
Expert on Something
Posts: 368
Joined: December 2nd, 2007 4:06 am

Postby QuackingShoe » July 13th, 2008 3:04 pm

In those contexts, I don't believe there's a difference. Overall, I believe で would give you more of a 'for' that time period kind of idea, while に would give you a more 'during' that time kind of idea.

To the best of my knowledge, one should never use を with a potential. It's effectively intransitive. However, the Japanese, like anyone else, really enjoy murdering their own language. So you'll see it. I've seen を分かる etc as well. Them's the breaks. <-- murders his own language!

で in that sentence is marking who is being talked to/with. The whole sentence is "The person who isn't able to speak English with the Japanese person(people?) living abroad is here also." That sentence doesn't actually make a lot of SENSE to me, but the grammar's there. Except for that を *shakes fist*.
Where is this sentence from?

Get 51% OFF
Psy
Expert on Something
Posts: 845
Joined: January 10th, 2007 8:33 am

Postby Psy » July 13th, 2008 9:34 pm

QuackingShoe wrote:In those contexts, I don't believe there's a difference. Overall, I believe で would give you more of a 'for' that time period kind of idea, while に would give you a more 'during' that time kind of idea.

Your instinct has served you will this time, but to clarify, で marks the quantity/duration within which something can be accomplished, eg この本は一時間で読めますよ "one can read that book in an hour." Whereas に above in 一時間に means "per hour."

To the best of my knowledge, one should never use を with a potential. It's effectively intransitive. However, the Japanese, like anyone else, really enjoy murdering their own language. So you'll see it. I've seen を分かる etc as well. Them's the breaks. <-- murders his own language!

Yeah, but they do all the time. Kind of like how you see それをしたい instead of それがしたい. From my understanding there are situations where both are correct, but I'm not fully aware of the nuances, so I'm in no position to instruct it.

で in that sentence is marking who is being talked to/with. The whole sentence is "The person who isn't able to speak English with the Japanese person(people?) living abroad is here also." That sentence doesn't actually make a lot of SENSE to me, but the grammar's there. Except for that を *shakes fist*.
Where is this sentence from?

Not quite. Kudos for the gallant effort, however. The particle one should use for "to speak with" is と. As for that で, in grammar-ese one could say that it means the "pre-existing condition accompanying the verb" or some such gobbledygook, or if it's easier just think that it means "of the." So onto the sentence:

海外に住んでいる日本人で英語を話せない人もいる。

This sentence has two relative clauses in it, and as such is almost guaranteed to warp the minds of those without considerable speaking practice. 8) At any rate, the first part:

海外に住んでいる = living overseas.
海外に住んでいる日本人 = Japanese people living overseas
海外に住んでいる日本人で = of the Japanese people living overseas (or: with the pre-existing condition that they are Japanese people living overseas)

Second part:
英語を話せない = cannot speak English
英語を話せない人 = people who cannot speak English
英語を話せない人もいる = there are also people who cannot speak English

Putting it together:
海外に住んでいる日本人で英語を話せない人もいる = of the Japanese people studying overseas, there are also those who can't speak English. (with the implication that, of course, there are also those who can)

Clear, I hope? Let me know!
High time to finish what I've started. || Anki vocabulary drive: 5,000/10k. Restart coming soon. || Dig my Road to Katakana tutorial on the App store.

Outkast
Expert on Something
Posts: 120
Joined: May 30th, 2006 3:31 pm

Postby Outkast » July 14th, 2008 3:19 am

Recently, a lot of Japanese native speakers have been trying to put を where only が naturally should be.

For example, マンゴが食べたい becomes マンゴを食べたい or 英語が全然話せない becomes 英語を全然話せない。

However, even though Japanese people are doing it, it's still wrong, and they still get called out for it in 国語 classes or when they try to do it in reports. Really, these examples aren't really verbs at all, but something closer to adjectives. The mango has the quality of being something I want to eat. English is not speakable (for me) at all. These sound strange, but they are really what's going on here. So, stick to using が for these situations, even if you hear Japanese people doing it sometimes. Otherwise you will fall into the habit of unintentional bad grammar that sound similar to English double negatives like "ain't got no".

Return to “Learn All About Japanese”