Good Grammar Overview for Beginners?

[johnpa]

I've almost completed the Newbie Lessons and would like to find a good overview of Japanese grammar.
Japanese the Manga Way looks pretty interesting. Has anybody read it?
Any other recommendations?

[Javizy]

I've already recommended this to someone today, but you should definitely invest in a copy of A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar by Seiichi Makino. The dictionary layout makes it an extremely easy-to-use reference, and the explanations are clear and concise, but at the same time answer all your questions. Each entry has key sentences, detailed formation, a good number of example sentences, grammar notes, and a related expressions section (which is extremely useful). I'm willing to bet it will not just act as a review, but actually teach you new things about grammar points you thought you knew inside out (happened to me repeatedly).

There is also an overview section explaining characteristics of Japanese grammar, and a number of appendices covering other topics. As well as covering all the grammar you've learnt up to this stage, it covers a lot more that you will no doubt be learning in the near future. There is also a follow-up intermediate addition, which covers almost too much grammar to handle (but I'm working on it ).

I'm surprised this isn't mentioned more often because it really is the grammar reference available. With the basic and intermediate editions, you're pretty much sorted for the next 2-4 years.

[Psy]

My first Japanese grammar book was Nishi's "Japanese Step by Step," which is a good (albeit dry) introduction to a large amount of fundamental grammar and pronunciation. "Japanese the Manga Way" covers a lot of the same material, though contains a few nuances and particulars of informal Japanese not found in Nishi's book, though I'd lean towards "Japanese Step by Step" for its emphasis on pitch-accent, clearer descriptions of honorific language, and better general organization.

Don't be fooled by the use of Manga as a teaching aid-- "Japanese the Manga Way" is at its heart a grammar guide, and can be every bit as dry and tiring as others of its kind. However, it does have the advantage in that all of its example sentences come from natural, situational language with clearly explained contexts. All and all, if it caught your eye and you like the approach, you could do a lot worse.

Just my 5 yen.

[Taurus]

I'm a bit of a beginner but, having used the Newbie series as a revision aid, I'd recommend the Minna no Nihongo series and the Complete Master Series Level 3 (this one, although I'm not sure if that's the best place to buy it - it's just the first link I found on Google).

In case you haven't heard of these, Minna no Nihongo comes in two volumes and assumes you understand kana. Unusually, each volume consists of two books: the first contains vocab and grammar points; the second contains exercises and sample conversations. I find the grammar points to be explained really well, and then reinforced by the exercises, and collectively the grammar points provide a really good overview. I believe that by the end of the second volume, you should be prepared for JLPT 3 (although it doesn't actively teach you Kanji).

The Complete Master Series is slightly different, in that it's essentially a long list of the grammar points that you'll need to understand for JLPT 3. It's really well organised (the first chapter lists all the grammar points associated with the -masu form; the second chapter lists all the grammar points associated with the -te form; and so on), and again, it comes with a list of sample questions to help you understand how the grammar is used in practice. The only drawback is that it's more useful as a revision aid than a teaching aid, because the explanations are rather more concise than Minna no Nihongo.

Obviously both of these are geared towards relative beginners, but like I say, I've found them very useful.

[JonB]

Before getting to grips with Japanese grammar has any one got a good recommendation for English grammar? My Japanese teacher throws around English grammar points like "volitional", "transitive" etc but it has been 30+ years since I had to do English grammar at school...

[jkid]

Before getting to grips with Japanese grammar has any one got a good recommendation for English grammar? My Japanese teacher throws around English grammar points like "volitional", "transitive" etc but it has been 30+ years since I had to do English grammar at school...

I really like this book:

http://www.amazon.com/English-Grammar-S ... 0934034168

I had a longer explanation as to why but my computer crashed.

Edit: Just want to add my 2 yen into the mix about Japanese grammar books. Minna no Nihongo is a fantastic textbook and yes, once you complete the 2nd book you will be ready for JLPT 3. You can learn Kanji with it if you buy the Kanji accompaniment along with the main textbook. You should also get the "review" book as well as "Translation and Grammatical Notes" specifically because that is the best book for grammar overview as well as learning the JLPT vocab. I hazard a guess that it is best used in a classroom setting but the books intro indicates it is intended for those who have left full time education. It really is worth getting. It'll cost a bit to get all the books I mentioned but you will benefit in the long run.

[Javizy]

Before getting to grips with Japanese grammar has any one got a good recommendation for English grammar? My Japanese teacher throws around English grammar points like "volitional", "transitive" etc but it has been 30+ years since I had to do English grammar at school...

I'm after one myself and was flicking through Cambridge Grammar of English in the bookshop. It seems to cover just about everything, and the explanations were easy to follow. You would probably want to find out if there is an American version in print, or whatever English dialect you speak.

I really don't like the sound of that book jkid mentioned, since trying to create parallels between Japanese and English is generally a really bad idea, and you're much better off treating them separately.

[jkid]

I really don't like the sound of that book jkid mentioned, since trying to create parallels between Japanese and English is generally a really bad idea, and you're much better off treating them separately.

That's a fair call but for me I just read the part of the book that explained the English grammar, granted very simply. The Japanese comparison part is not the main focus and can easily be ignored if you just want a cheap basic understanding.

[Taurus]

You should also get the "review" book as well as "Translation and Grammatical Notes" specifically because that is the best book for grammar overview as well as learning the JLPT vocab.

What do you mean by 'review' book? I've had a look here and can't seem to work out which one you're referring to. Actually, that link provides a good summary of the Minna no Nihongo series for anyone who hasn't heard of it. The idea is that you buy a copy of the Honsatsu, or main textbook, and the relevant Bunpo Kaisetsu, or translation and notes, and use them together - but as you can see from that link, there's also various supplementary materials and books.

I really don't like the sound of that book jkid mentioned, since trying to create parallels between Japanese and English is generally a really bad idea, and you're much better off treating them separately.

Would it not be useful, though, to understand the differences? I've never really understood how to learn languages because I was taught so badly at school, and I find that language experts sometimes underestimate how little beginners know about languages. I didn't even know what syntax was until I started learning Latin as a postgraduate.

[JonB]

You would probably want to find out if there is an American version in print, or whatever English dialect you speak.

I'll stick with English thanks - after all that is where I am from! Sounds interesting - will look it up.

Slight aside - why do some ex-colonies get the Queen's official birthday as a national holiday yet back home we don't? There are even two opportunities - her real birthday, too close to easter and may bank holiday I guess, or her official one which I guess is too close to the spring bank holiday. Bizzare

[jkid]

What do you mean by 'review' book?

Sorry. I should have looked up the Japanese name. I didn't realise there was that much supplementary material.


I mean this: http://www.3anet.co.jp/english/books/text_e_m_work.html

[Taurus]

Aha, cheers. I did wonder whether those books were worth it. I guess I'll check them out.

[johnpa]

Thanks for all the helpful advice.

I read a lot of good things about Mina No Nihongo. Then one day I ran into Susumo Nagara's Japanese for Everyone and thought I had stumbled onto the English version of Mina No.... (A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.) But Japanese for Everyone doesn't seem like a bad text, so I think I'll stick with it for now.

Japanese Step By Step is also my first Japanese grammar text, but it started to scare me after a few chapters. So I've put it away for the time being.
The scary thing is that Nishi's approach gives you the tools to construct you own Japanese sentences whether you understand their proper usage or not.
My native language is Greek, and I was full of these kinds of sentences when I first arrived in the US. Sometimes it was just cute and quirky. ("Am I wrong to love coffee so much ?" vs. "Do you think I drink too much coffee?") Most of the time I sounded terribly stilted. (eg. "Please correct my pronunciation for this phrase." vs "What's the right way to say ...?") Other time's I came off as a bit abrasive. ("What's so special about 'The Godfather'?" instead of "What makes "The Godfather" such a classic?")

So I went ahead and gave The Manga Way a shot. (Since it's taken from real mangas.)
So far (chapter 9) it seems to be a good overview of the range of Japanese expression. But I wish there were more examples for each grammar point.

[Taurus]

So I went ahead and gave The Manga Way a shot. (Since it's taken from real mangas.)
So far (chapter 9) it seems to be a good overview of the range of Japanese expression. But I wish there were more examples for each grammar point.

Your English is excellent!

I really wouldn't recommend Japanese The Manga Way as a core text (I'm assuming you're talking about the one by Wayne Lammers - there are other textbooks which have Manga in the title). I think it's a good book and it's useful when you know a little bit about the language, as a revision aid for example, ot to gain a different perspective, or to increase your understanding of colloquialisms and so on. But I don't think it's arranged very well as a textbook - in fact, I don't think it's really a textbook at all; it's more that it's simply a book about the Japanese language. (And if you're looking for entertaining, informative books about the Japanese language, you could try Jay Rubin's Making Sense of Japanese - he's the guy who translates a lot of Haruki Murakami's novels into English, and he recently worked on the Xbox 360 game, Lost Odyssey.)

[Liz21]

Before getting to grips with Japanese grammar has any one got a good recommendation for English grammar? My Japanese teacher throws around English grammar points like "volitional", "transitive" etc but it has been 30+ years since I had to do English grammar at school...

JonB. -- I noticed the same thing! However, I think that Japanese uses these forms more than we do in English. Does anyone else agree?