Sentence Construction

[Fedgrub]

Hey guys,

I guess the main hurdle for me at the moment is sentence construction. Like, putting the verbs and adjectives in the right places etc.

Is it useful to have someone map out a sentence order like:

verb noun etc?

Some kind of frame for me to build on? Or would that cause problems in the long run? Is there some form of general rule that is useful for sentence construction?

Thanks in advance

[Shaydwyrm]

The one thing that never changes is that the verb always comes at the end, and you should always have a verb (except in sentence fragments). Stuff marked with は usually comes at the beginning. Of course, modifying phrases come before the noun being modified. Most everything else, though, is quite flexible I think, or is at least harder to define. Different orders of words often make sense and have the same basic meaning, but have slightly different implications or feelings.

[maxiewawa]

Fedgrub, as Shaydwyrm, sentence order is very fluid. But to elaborate, you usually have single kana 'markers' (actually called 'particles') which tell you what the part that came before it functions as. Verbs always come last, more or less.

Other than that, anything goes.

[Fedgrub]

Cool, thanks for the tips guys. So if I was to say for example "I went shopping with my mother" the Japanese translation would be around "I my mother shopping went?" Or would it be something different than that?

Could anyone please give me the translation in Hiragana and english of "Today I played poker with friends?" If someone could please give me that translation in hiragana and english with the Japanese order of the words it would be greatly appreciated, I think it would help a lot to see something practical. Its just a random sentence I made up to have a base for my understanding. I learn most from experimenting. Where do you go from there if you said "Today I played poker with friends but I lost." Where would the "but I lost" fall in the sentence? In my mind I am thinking it would be like this:

"I and friends poker today played" for the simple version, and for the extra part I figure the "but I lost" part would fall between the word for today and the word for played?

Sorry if this is confusing, I'm struggling to get my head around this part!! Thanks heaps for your help.

[jemstone]

i'm thinking the "today" portion could actually come in front... like きょうわ...

maybe in english it might be "today friends and i poker played"
きょうわ　わたしとともだち　ポカー　あそぼ(sp?) です。

i'm not sure if "play" is あそぼ or あそぽ...

edit:
i left out a lot of particles coz i don't know which ones to use... heh

[Fedgrub]

Oh yeah... How would "friends and I" be written? Because to me its easy to start with I, but its harder to add I in later... damn!!

[Shaydwyrm]

今日（きょう）友達（ともだち）とポーカーをした。
今日私（わたし）は友達とポーカーをした。

A couple examples, and there are a number of other sentences that will work. You could use が instead of は in the second one. The problem with translating a sentence like that without context is that there are several possible Japanese sentences that imply different contexts.

I think the first one I gave is the most neutral, and omitting the "I" is usually quite natural. In context, however, this could also mean someone else played poker with their friends.

The second one feels like a conversation where 2+ people are discussing their activities - "I played poker with my friends (as opposed to what someone else was doing)". If you replace が with は, to me it now sounds like the answer to a question - "Who played poker yesterday?" "I played poker yesterday, with my friends." は　vs　が　vs　no particle is a subject that's tricky to explain, and if you need help with it, it's probably best not to rely only on my explanations

今日は友達とポーカーをした。

This one attaches that sense of contrast to 今日 instead, so "Today (as opposed to another day) (I) played poker with my friends."

I digress, and this was maybe TMI.

Back to your actual question, 今日 sounds most natural first, and I remember a Japanese teacher at some point telling me that words for relative time, like 今日 or 明日（あした） but not 三月（さんがつ） generally come at the head of the sentence without a particle (unless は is necessary). The rest of the sentence will usually go subject, object, verb. This is flexible, and if you reverse the subject and object the sentence will still make sense, but most commonly the order is SOV.

To add in "I lost", one possibility is: 今日友達とポーカーをしたけど、負（ま）けた。

ｊemstone: For stuff like sports and games, generally する　or やる　is used.

[Fedgrub]

は versus が is not really an issue at the moment, for what I need I think I have a decent grasp on that... But thanks for your subject object verb detail, that really helps because I was looking for a formula type of thing to help, that was great.

How long have you been studying for?

[Shaydwyrm]

Glad it helps Just remember that you can also very frequently omit the subject, object, or both!

I studied two years in college, and for the 6 months since then I've been working in Japan and studying on my own.

[Javizy]

Good example sentence

先週土曜日に家で友人の3人とポーカーをして、楽勝に20ポンドの賞金を得たんです。ハウスはいつも勝ってます!
せんしゅうどようびにうちでゆうじんのさんにんとポーカーをして、らくしょうに20ポンドのしょうきんをえたんです。ハウスはいつもかってます!
I played poker with three friends at my house last Saturday, and easily picked up the £20 prize money. The house always wins!

It's best to pick up sentence structure as you go along, so I'd just stick to doing the lessons for now, and perhaps buying a grammar reference that starts from the ground up; I found Oxford's 'Japanese Grammar and Verbs' quite a good book when I was more of a beginner, it covers all the fundamental grammar and has a useful section on keigo.

[jemstone]

ｊemstone: For stuff like sports and games, generally する　or やる　is used.

sou desu!!
so we say ポーカーが　する　です
to mean "play poker"?

[Shaydwyrm]

ｊemstone: For stuff like sports and games, generally する　or やる　is used.

sou desu!!
so we say ポーカーが　する　です
to mean "play poker"?

ポーカーをする is enough; if you want it to be more formal, ポーカーをします。