Using ている and ていた

[dhoggan]

Hi there,

I'm hoping that someone can help me understand a grammar point that I have consistently found difficult. It's something that has come up in my JLPT revision and despite looking in my 元気 textbooks, these forums and lesson PDFs and a general Google search, I can't seem to find an explanation that I understand.

I'm reasonably happy that I understand the use of ている - roughly analogous to the English present progressive and indicates that something is in a state, or is part of an ongoing action. So we have 窓が開いてるいる to mean that the window is currently open.Would that be correct?

Where I rapidly come unstuck is when we have something like 窓が開いてるいた. My translation would be 'The window was [in a state of being] open'. But, is this not better said by 窓が開いた?

In other words, when would you use ていた?

僕の脳みそがいたいだ・・・

Dave

[Javizy]

I can't type of Japanese at the moment, so forgive the Romaji.

You're using iru twice in your examples, it should just be aite iru.

I'm not sure I understand your problem though.

aite iru - in a state of being open; 'the window is open'
aite ita - previously in a state of being open; 'the window was open'
aita - previous opening action; 'I opened the window'

The problem I had with the te iru form was with sentences like 'kinou nani shiteta? / what did you do yesterday?'. The simple explanation for this is that the Japanese use the progressive tense far more than we do in English. I haven't read a decent explanation as to why, I've just tried to learn by example.

[Shaydwyrm]

aita - previous opening action; 'I opened the window'

I think this was probably a typo, but just so there's no confusion:

窓が開いた　= the window opened (no one in particular necessarily did it)
窓を開けた　= (I) opened the window.


Yeah, I have issues with the Japanese progressive sometimes too. My problems usually come up in situations like this:

ちゃんとやった？
いいえ、やっていない。

Saying やらなかった　implies that you have no intention of doing whatever it is in the future either, whereas やっていない　has the nuance of not having done it...yet.

[dhoggan]

Hi,

Yes, you're absolutely right about using いる twice; I wasn't thinking about writing the Japanese.

But, you've hit the nail on the head with your English translations although perhaps I should try another example as I have been thinking about this:

彼女が歌っていた。 She was singing.
彼女を歌った。 She sang.

In this case, I struggle to understand the difference. Granted, the first implies she was in a state of singing, but since this is in the past, are the two not equivalent? Or is this because the use of ていた requires more context:

姉ちゃんに電話した時彼女が歌っていた。 When I phoned my sister, she was singing.
姉ちゃんに電話した時彼女を歌った。When I phoned my sister, she sang.

Here, the first obviously makes sense, but could it not be written

姉ちゃんに電話した時彼女が歌っているところでした。

I'm sorry if I'm not explaining this very well...

Dave

[dhoggan]

Shaydwyrm,

You read my mind. the use of the progressive in negative form is my next question after clearing up the past tense confusion I have. But, what about the question: 知っていますか? I've always understood that to reply in the negative, you use 知りません and not 知っていません。 If that is the case, then what I'm saying is 'I don't know and don't care to know'??

Dave

[Javizy]

They convey essentially the same meaning, as in English, it just depends what the speaker intends to focus on. The progressive form focuses on a specific point in time, whereas the simple past merely states that the action occurred and has finished.

When I phoned my sister she was singing (as she picked up the phone)
When I phoned my sister she sang (at some point during the call)

With the first sentence, we only know that she was singing when I phoned her, perhaps she never stopped, whereas in the second sentence we know the action was completed during the call.

You'd probably use the first sentence to continue describing other concurrent actions, whereas the second sentence could be used to describe a sequence of events.

[Jason]

Shaydwyrm,

You read my mind. the use of the progressive in negative form is my next question after clearing up the past tense confusion I have. But, what about the question: 知っていますか? I've always understood that to reply in the negative, you use 知りません and not 知っていません。 If that is the case, then what I'm saying is 'I don't know and don't care to know'??

Dave

In Japanese, the "act" of knowing something in the case of 知る is a kind of an instant, one shot action. You're either in the state of knowing something or the act of coming to know something never happened. There's no concept of being in the state of not knowing with 知る. This is more of a peculiarity of the verb itself and less about the general nature of the progressive tense.

[dhoggan]

Maybe 知る was a bad example then. But could I run another one by you guys?

Here's a sample JLPT question, with the answers filled in:

田中：ヤンさん、この映画もうみましたか。
ヤン：ああ、これ。まだ見ていません。見たいと思っていたんです。

In Yan's response he states '見ていません'. So, should I interpret this as meaning 'so far, I not see it'? (Bad English to illustrate the point). And from a previous post, the implication here is that he is open to seeing it in the future?

Could he have replied 見ませんでした meaning he hasn't see it and does not want to.

The second point is the と思っていた. Because this is past tense, does that mean he no longer wants to see it as the state of wanting to see it is not in the present?

It's SO confusing!

[Javizy]

Are you familiar with the English perfect tense? You can use it to indicate that a past action has some bearing on the present; 'the letter has fallen down (and is now on the floor)'. You can specify a time frame that includes the present; 'I have studied Japanese for two years (and still do)'. And you can also specify habitual actions; 'I have gone jogging twice a week for the past year'.

The Japanese ～ている form can roughly correspond to each three of these uses, as well as the English progressive form. Distinguishing between the perfect and progressive is a contextual issue in Japanese, and is usually given away by adverbs and other surrounding words.

Perfect equivalent:

1. 手紙が落ちている the letter has fallen down.
2. 日本語を二年間勉強している I have studied Japanese for two years.
3. ここ一年、週二回ぐらいジョギングをしている I have gone jogging twice a week for the past year.

3 can also be used to describe habitual actions where in English we would use the simple present; 毎朝ジョギングをしている I go jogging every morning.

Progressive equivalent:

1. 窓から手紙が落ちている the letter is falling from the window.
2. 今日本語を勉強しているところ I'm currently in the midst of studying Japanese.
3. 今ジョギングをしていて、もう５分だけぐらいかかりそうなんだ I'm jogging now, so I should only be another five minutes.

If you think in terms of the perfect tense when you see a ～ている construction that isn't progressive, it might be less confusing. For example, a sentence such as この花瓶が壊れている would usually be translated as 'the vase is broken', which is actually the English passive voice. If you think of it as 'the vase has broken', it fits in line with the three uses that I described above. After you appreciate the differences between Japanese and English tenses it's actually quite simple, it just takes some getting used to.

So, getting to your example, 見ませんでした is the simple past equivalent 'did not see', whereas 見ていません is the present perfect equivalent 'have not seen', which is the translation you want. If you brush up on your English grammar, it will be far easier to assess the similarities and differences between Japanese and English, and will allow you to be more pragmatic in deciding which tense to use. I think most people have do brush up on their mother tongue to learn a second language (I did and still do).

[dhoggan]

Ah....

So, in the first case 見ていません is the perfect tense and as such is 'have not seen'. The same grammar as English would use.

Things are beginning to make sense; てある is the equivalent of the passive perfect, so it make sense that ている is the perfect form.

In the second case we have 見たいと思っていたんです. In present progressive this would be 'was thinking [I] want to see' whereas in perfect it would be 'have been thinking I want to see'? My natural reaction would be to use the progressive form, but if this implies I am not thinkng that now, is the only option the past perfect?


> If you brush up on your English grammar, it will be far easier to assess the similarities and differences between Japanese and English, and will allow you to be more pragmatic in deciding which tense to use.

How very true this is!! Since beginning Japanese study I have come to realise just how much English grammar I just use without any real knowledge.

Many thanks,

Dave

[Javizy]

Ah....

So, in the first case 見ていません is the perfect tense and as such is 'have not seen'. The same grammar as English would use.

Things are beginning to make sense; てある is the equivalent of the passive perfect, so it make sense that ている is the perfect form.

In the second case we have 見たいと思っていたんです. In present progressive this would be 'was thinking [I] want to see' whereas in perfect it would be 'have been thinking I want to see'? My natural reaction would be to use the progressive form, but if this implies I am not thinkng that now, is the only option the past perfect?


> If you brush up on your English grammar, it will be far easier to assess the similarities and differences between Japanese and English, and will allow you to be more pragmatic in deciding which tense to use.

How very true this is!! Since beginning Japanese study I have come to realise just how much English grammar I just use without any real knowledge.

Many thanks,

Dave

I think 見たいと思っていたんです touches on the point I mentioned before: that Japanese use the progressive in many cases where we don't in English. Like I said, I haven't read a decent explanation so I can't really elaborate as to why. It might make a good topic for a lesson, but I think it might be one of those things you just have to familiarise yourself with. Understanding it is simple enough, but when it comes to forming your own sentences it becomes troublesome.

[jkeyz15]

I would avoid making many connections from English to Japanese as there are very few. Yes, sometimes ている does sometimes translate to a perfective tense in English, but that doesn't mean that it is a Japanese perfective tense. Actually the concept of tense was introduced to Japanese from other languages and so the language doesn't consider tense the same way we do.

Also avoid using English concepts to construct Japanese sentences.
Trust me.

I suck at explaining sometimes, and I might confuse you, or even misinform you with something I have misunderstood.

I would ask this question again at www.guidetojapanese.org/forum in the Japanese questions/discussions section. (If you don't want to sign up, you can post as a guest)

[Javizy]

Nobody was saying anything is anything, I was just giving the guy a basis for comparison since he was clearly having trouble distinguishing between "tenses" thinking only in Japanese. He's no doubt already heard the regular explanations, such as 'it represents a state' and so on, but with nothing to correlate that to it's confusing. I'll try explaining in those terms anyway:

You could boil the ている form down to four uses:

1. ジムが魚を食べている
Here, it indicates that the action is in progress, i.e. that Jim is currently eating the fish.

2. ピーターさんはどこでジョギングをしていますか
Here, it refers to a habitual action, not an action in progress. So it is likely that Peter jogs every day, and the speaker is inquiring as to where the action takes place.

3. 窓が開いている
Here, it describes the result of a past action, namely that the window is now open because somebody previously opened it.

4. 授業は終っている
Here, it expresses completion; the class has finished (and it's time to go home).

As for the difference between た and ている: た simply refers to a past action, whereas ている refers to a continuing state that is a result of a past action (as in 3).

うちのやつは会社に行っています my wife is at work.
Using the ている here places emphasis on the fact that the wife is still at work at the present time, so it's more like the 'my wife has gone to work (and is still there)'.

昨日うちのやつは会社に行ってきました my wife went to work yesterday
The simple た form simply states that the action happened.

Naturally it's best to learn it like this, focusing only on the Japanese, but ultimately you're not going to be able to think in Japanese until you're fluent, so you need some sort of basis for correlating the two. When

[dhoggan]

Guys,

Honestly, thanks for all the help; it must be painful to have to be so basic, but I have never really understood this so please stick with me...

I have been doing some reading up about English and have some questions on this, based on the following definitions:

Present Perfect: An event/state started in the past that still has relevance in the present.

Past Perfect: An event/state started and completed in the past, but with little relevance in the present.

Future Perfect: An event/state that will be completed in the future, although it may not have been started in the present.

Present Progressive: An event/state that is underway at the time of utterance.

Past Progressive: An event/state that was in effect at some time in the past.

Do we agree on these definitions? The only one I am dubious about is past progressive. I do accept the point about Japanese perhaps not having the concept of perfective tense per se, but it must have the ability to describe events that start and finish from different points of view in relation to the time frame. No?


So, with these definitions in mind, two of the functions of ている are to act as (the equivalent of) present progressive and present perfect. So, without context, 飲んでいる could mean either "is drinking" (progressive) or "has drunk" (perfect) ... correct? I hope so as I think I understand things *in the present tense*.

It's really the past I struggle with..

彼は本を読んだ。-- "He read the book." A nice simple statement of fact. No links to the present.

彼は本を読んでいた。-- "He had read the book" or "He was reading the book." Again without context it's not possible to tell the difference. So we could have something like "He had read the book so I don't know why he has failed the exam."...

Maybe this will help explain my confusion. Here's the full version of the JLPT question...

田中：ヤンさん、この映画もうみましたか。
ヤン：ああ、これ。まだ見ていません。見たいと思っていたんです。
田中：そうですか。よかったら、こんどの日曜日に見に行きませんか。
ヤン：ええ、ぜひ。山川さんもさそいましたか。
田中：あ、山川さんははもう見たそうですよ。とても面白かったそうです。


In line 2, Yan says 見ていません which I am happy means 'haven't seen'. however, in line 5, Tanaka says 'I hear Yamakawa already saw it". Would it not have been better to say 'I hear Yamakawa has already seen it'. This is really the source of my confusion: why plain past and not past perfect? Surely the fact that Yamakawa's viewing of the film has a relevance to the present which would make it present perfect?

Sorry for the ramblings, but I feel that I make be getting to the bottom of this in time for Sunday

[dhoggan]

Guys,

Honestly, thanks for all the help; it must be painful to have to be so basic, but I have never really understood this so please stick with me...

I have been doing some reading up about English and have some questions on this, based on the following definitions:

Present Perfect: An event/state started in the past that still has relevance in the present.

Past Perfect: An event/state started and completed in the past, but with little relevance in the present.

Future Perfect: An event/state that will be completed in the future, although it may not have been started in the present.

Present Progressive: An event/state that is underway at the time of utterance.

Past Progressive: An event/state that was in effect at some time in the past.

Do we agree on these definitions? The only one I am dubious about is past progressive. I do accept the point about Japanese perhaps not having the concept of perfective tense per se, but it must have the ability to describe events that start and finish from different points of view in relation to the time frame. No?


So, with these definitions in mind, two of the functions of ている are to act as (the equivalent of) present progressive and present perfect. So, without context, 飲んでいる could mean either "is drinking" (progressive) or "has drunk" (perfect) ... correct? I hope so as I think I understand things *in the present tense*.

It's really the past I struggle with..

彼は本を読んだ。-- "He read the book." A nice simple statement of fact. No links to the present.

彼は本を読んでいた。-- "He had read the book" or "He was reading the book." Again without context it's not possible to tell the difference. So we could have something like "He had read the book so I don't know why he has failed the exam."...

Maybe this will help explain my confusion. Here's the full version of the JLPT question...

田中：ヤンさん、この映画もうみましたか。
ヤン：ああ、これ。まだ見ていません。見たいと思っていたんです。
田中：そうですか。よかったら、こんどの日曜日に見に行きませんか。
ヤン：ええ、ぜひ。山川さんもさそいましたか。
田中：あ、山川さんははもう見たそうですよ。とても面白かったそうです。


In line 2, Yan says 見ていません which I am happy means 'haven't seen'. however, in line 5, Tanaka says 'I hear Yamakawa already saw it". Would it not have been better to say 'I hear Yamakawa has already seen it'. This is really the source of my confusion: why plain past and not past perfect? Surely the fact that Yamakawa's viewing of the film has a relevance to the present which would make it present perfect?

Sorry for the ramblings, but I feel that I make be getting to the bottom of this in time for Sunday