には vs. ため（に）

[Brody]

I've been trying to figure out to say "to" in Japanese, as in "I called my friend to ask his advice"; "I attend class to learn Japanese."

Pretty much, I've narrowed in down to ために and には. I can't figure out the difference between them.

Here's an example for ために：あなたに差し上げるために持ってきました。
(I brought this to give to you)

And here's an example for には：つづけるにはなにかボタンをおしてください。
(Press any button to continue)

What's the difference? Are they pretty interchangeable? I know ため means more "in order to." Does that have anything to do with differentiating them? Also can you drop the は after に and still have the same meaning of "to" ???

Thanks.

[Jason]

Well, ために means "for the sake of" or in some contexts "for the benefit of." It carries an implication of what's being done is particularly for someone or something's good/benifit/etc. While に（は） is more of a generic to/for. The nuance between the two is quite different, so I wouldn't say they're interchangable. Also, the emphasis in ために setences is more on what's attached to ために than the action done for it. Let's take the sentences in your first paragraph as an example. I would translate these:

アドバイスを聞きに友達に電話した。
日本語を勉強するために、クラスに出る。

While in the first sentence the advice you're asking for is for your benefit, the benefit isn't really directly from calling your friend but from asking their advice. At least that's how the emphasis shifts in this version. Let's consider:

アドバイスを聞くために、友達に電話した。

Here's a kinda visual way of looking at the differnce in emphasis in these 2 versions:

1) I called my friend to ask his advice.
2) I called my friend to ask his advice.

Grammatically, both work fine. In this case, the difference is in what part you want to empahsize. Personally I prefer the に version since your benefit is really coming more from asking advice rather than the calling. But that's just me.

Now, for your other sentence, "I attend...", if you translated it:

日本語を勉強しにクラスに出る。

This comes across as a very bland, straight forward statement of fact. And the emphasis shifts to your going to class over "to study Japanese", which I don't think is the intent of the original English.

That all being said, is it more clear now why the Japanese setences you gave are how they are?

Like so many other things, how you say "do X for Y" depends a lot on what kind of nuance and such you want to express. While there may be more than one construction to do basically what you want, the subtle differences between them make certain ones more appropriate for the job. Knowing and learning to use these subtleties will seperate you from just being "good" at Japanese to being "great."

[Brody]

As always, Jason-san, you're my lifesaver. In English, I think for the most part "to" and "in order to" are interchangeable grammatically: "I went to the store TO buy apples," or "I went to the store IN ORDER TO buy apples." Both are grammatically correct, but the first sentence (to) suggests that buying apples is no big event, whereas the second sentence (in order to) suggests something like you went to the store just to buy apples. Am I right?

I have limited exposure to Japanese but more and more it seems the use of に（は）is much more common than ために. Am I correct in my observation? If so, it seems it is the same as English: different levels of emphasis.

I apologize for somewhat re-typing what you have written but I am somewhat thinking out loud. Also, I thought は was for emphasis as well; if I added は　to　に wouldn't I be emphasizing? Perhaps again it is levels of increasing emphasis, namely (lowest to highest) に、には、ために

Anyway, I guess ultimately my primary question is: are both interchangeable grammatically? Are there instances where I could use one and not the other (in the sense of the English word "to")? I am trying to get to the point where I can speak using correct grammar. I will iron out the nuances such as emphasis levels later.

Thank you

[Bueller_007]

Difficult question, so forgive the long answer.

You can try this link:
http://home.alc.co.jp/db/owa/jpn_npa?stage=2&sn=114

The question is:
What is the difference betweenこのお金はうちをたてるために使う and このお金はうちをたてるのに使う?


Translation of the important parts:

Basically, "tame" is used to represent a connection between two ABSTRACT THINGS (or actions). In the example このお金はうちをたてるために使います, the actions お金を使う and うちをたてる are tied together in a cause-and-effect relationship by "tame".

On the other hand, take the purposeful "use" of a CONCRETE THING in connection with an abstract thing or another concrete thing. Such sentences use "no ni". In the example このお金はうちをたてるのに使います, the concrete thing お金 and the action うちをたてる are tied together.


So in a nutshell, "tame" ties together abstract things, "no ni" requires one concrete thing. The meaning is basically the same for both of the example sentences in the question, and both are okay. But both have more than one use. What I've said above just applies to their use when referring to "purpose".

Note: The "no" in "no ni" often gets dropped (in casual conversation). The "ni" in "tame ni" can also be dropped. (Literary style?)

You also have to be careful about the difference between ために and ように, both of which express purpose. ために is used for something within one's realm of control. ように is used for something outside the realm of one's control (and so is often used with potential forms of the verb.)

カナダへ行くために (In order to go to Canada...)　OK!
カナダへ行くように NO!
カナダへ行けるように (In order to be able to go to Canada...) OK!
カナダへ行けるために NO!

[Brody]

Thanks, Bueller-san