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How long will it take roughly?

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larn555
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How long will it take roughly?

Postby larn555 » July 24th, 2007 11:25 pm

Hi, I have been using this website for about 2 months now. I started as a newbie, worked through 20 beginner lessons and with this learned how to introduce myself and ask basic questions. Most of what i say ends in 'ka' which is not very impressive.

I would like to know how long it would take me to learn enough to hold a basic conversation in Japanese, i know we are all different academicaly, but for someone with average learning skills, what would you say? thanks

jkeyz15
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Postby jkeyz15 » July 25th, 2007 1:18 am

average learning skills.....

To be able to hold a basic conversation.....a bout a year. Maybe a little more or a little less depending on how well you learn and how dedicated you are (how much you study). If you study and practice a lot, you may be able to understand well, but conversation will be difficult without real world practice.

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larn555
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Postby larn555 » July 25th, 2007 9:45 am

Hi jkeyz,

Thanks for that estimate, i suppose that sounds about right. I will continue with the lessons, your also right about real world practice, i have met people who have picked up English super quick just from being here. maybe i could meet some japanese students or something, hang out with them and ask them to talk in japanese.

thanks, Luan



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Belton
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Postby Belton » July 25th, 2007 9:59 am

It depends what you mean by a basic conversation.

After a year, I think you could expect to operate as a tourist without a phrasebook.
Simple transactions like asking where something is. Shopping. Ordering a meal (although probably not reading a menu!). Buying a train ticket. Things like that.

On a conversational level you could probably describe what you have done recently and maybe a bit about your background. Your country, your work, your family.

It tends to be one sided however. You'd have problems with the native's side of a conversation. They won't have learned the same "script" as you and will probably use more sophisticated language than you can understand and speak at a much faster rate than you're used to. Conversation tends to be a bit hesitant and stilted from the learner's side. (and sometimes frustrating as you can't express yourself as you can in your first language)

But I'd say you have a reasonable foundation for basic conversation if you can ask questions. As long as you can pick up on the response and ask an intelligent follow on question, or be prepared to answer a similar question yourself. It will probably be factual and based on events.

In "basic level real world", you can use other strategies and fall back on pidgin language, a mix of English and Japanese, pointing, writing. All sorts of things. Not good in the classroom but with a friend in the real world you do whatever it takes. Ideally you want to have the skill not to have to do this.

The next stage would be introducing opinions (more than just like and dislike) and conjecture and being able to structure an argument.


What to do? Well as soon as you can, find Japanese people to talk to. Either someone with good English but very patient and has an ability to reduce their Japanese to your level; these are usually teachers of Japanese however, or someone with as poor English as your Japanese is poor; this forces you to speak Japanese and "negotiate" your way around a conversation. It is possible to find conversational partners on the Internet at places such as mixxer http://www.language-exchanges.org/

Skype is good because it allows for written exchange as well which smoothes out pronunciation problems sometimes. You can also have speedy access to electronic dictionaries for unknown words.
Messaging can also be an easier way to practice in the beginning as the speed of response can be slower than with talking and yet a conversation can still happen.

Also rehearse for conversation by reading and writing. Learn phrases rather than just words. Be then able to slot new words into those phrases. Try sample dialogues that you find in textbooks. There is a technique called shadowing that can help you improve speed and flow of speaking.

Also as an aside I think classroom hours are a better way to describe how long something takes, rather than how many months or years. Much harder to work out though.

Conversation is a pinnacle of language interaction and is quite difficult and sophisticated when you think about it.

I read an article recently on the Daily Yomiuri site
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/features/la ... Y14004.htm
If one looks at the field of conversation analysis, one can find myriad features that adults regularly apply in L1 (first language) conversations. Among these are turn-taking units, complex sequencing, pragmatics, topic-selection and change, repair, features of face and politeness, the appropriate choice of gambits, elaboration and extrapolation, those key features of extension and development. Most of these demand higher-order cognitive and social interaction skills.

It had interesting things to say about the difference between a conversation and an "instrumental exchange". It was about teaching English as a second language at primary school level.

Liz21
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Postby Liz21 » July 25th, 2007 11:51 am

Belton-san,
As usual, your answer is so very interesting and thorough! One clarification as to Skype: I know you are referring to audio on Skype, using a microphone, right?

Also, Max-san has devised a project to help us practice simple conversation. Check it out here:

http://www.japanesepod101.com/forum/vie ... php?t=1781

Belton
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Postby Belton » July 25th, 2007 12:14 pm

Liz21 wrote:One clarification as to Skype: I know you are referring to audio on Skype, using a microphone, right?


Right.
But I tend to use the text features at the same time as talking. Often to clarify or explain things both in English and Japanese. And because I'm at my computer it can be very quick to look up words. Skype raises my level a bit more than I would otherwise be "in the field"
(I tend not to use video anymore, mainly because it caused too many problems. )

I'll try to contribute to The MAXIWAWA Project. I just have to find Japanese speakers and convince them too.

Liz21
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Postby Liz21 » July 25th, 2007 12:29 pm

Belton-san,
I agree that using Skype audio and messaging at the same time is truly awesome.

As to the "Maxiewawa" project, you can record your conversation with your language partner on Skype. That's what I did. (Don't be shy, hahaha, do it!!)

maxiewawa
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Postby maxiewawa » July 25th, 2007 12:45 pm

Thanks for the support guys, I'll expect your mp3s soon! Liz21さん has already started, so がんばれ everyone!

One thing that I don't think we've touched on is that no one ever wakes up and starts speaking fluently in another language. It's a process that happens gradually; you don't notice it happening.

In a year you will definitely have improved vastly, but won't realise it. Only when you look back over your old textbooks and think back on how many hours you went over them will you realise how far you have come.

Some day you'll be watching the latest news from HSK in Japanese and it'll hit you: holy crap, I understand this!

We all do it: we think our level of Japanese is lower than it actually is. Then a friend will catch you reading a manga or something; he/she will look astonished. - "You actuallly UNDERSTAND all that??". You'll shrug. "Yeah, a bit". Your friend will give an astonished look, and trying to test you to see if you understand. You'll keep trying to be modest and explain that you were only reading it to try memorise all the hiragana in it, and that you can only BARELY understand what's going on. Your friend won't listen to your modest protests, and eventually it hits you, that you really CAN understand Japanese to some degree.

McCrank
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Postby McCrank » July 26th, 2007 8:31 pm

if english is your 2nd language and it took you 5 years to learn that fluently. it will take about as long to learn japanese.

personally i could understand everything they said in english on TV when i was 11-12 years old.(except for rarely used words that i dont even know in my native language etc)

but thats after watching english cartoon network since i was 6 and couple of years of learning it in elementary school.

since i was about 14 i started using english alot more because i got an internet connection. everyday i read english and typed english. 6 years later which about 4 of those years ive learned english in school. i still cant speak english really fluently. i cant write grammatically correct.

and i write and read more english than i do my native language a day. i speak in my native language more ofc.

this should give you an idea how long it will take hehe

EDIT: i might add that i never wanted to learn english. if you have japanese as a goal you will obviously learn a lot faster.

Shumiston
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Postby Shumiston » July 26th, 2007 9:57 pm

how long would it take someone with nonverbal learning disorder like me to learn how to write well, and memorize kanji and kana. Put it this way I am great with like spelling, learning how to speak languages etc. but terrible with other stuff like math, and japanese characters etc. I know most of you guys aren't doctors or anything but just some advice would help.
Email me with different things to help me with reading and writing. The language speaking is easy with me, but the Japanese writing system is hard for me.

maxiewawa
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Postby maxiewawa » July 27th, 2007 1:11 pm

This guy might be able to help more than anyone: http://blogs.japanesepod101.com/blog/20 ... /#comments

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