Listening and understanding japanese

[McCrank]

Ive been wanting to learn japanese for quite some time. first i thought i could go to school for it but then i would learn a lot of stuff i dont need or want to learn.
so obviously i searched the net found this site. been looking around and listening to the podcasts etc.

what i was wondering what is the best way to start if you only want to be able to understand japanese when its spoken to you? like when you watch a japanese TV show. understanding what they say etc.

writing it with the use of only hiragana doesnt seem too difficult(but its never written like that). but kanji? like 2000 different kanji to learn and understand. as i understand it a japanese kid cant read the whole newspaper until hes in high school. so like i figured that writing with kanji, hiragana and katakana at the same time will take many many years to learn.

so when learning how to listen and understand japanese. what is the best way?

sorry if my english is poor. im norwegian.

EDIT: i guess just writing and learning with the use of romaji is the best way? since all the sounds are written in letters i already know.

[kichigaijin]

Before you trek down the path that I mistakenly wandered down years ago, I just want to say there is definitely good reason to learn kanji.

Basically, once you get to a certain point with Japanese (and it's not that far down the road), you'll know tons of words that are pronounced the same way, but have no clue from the meaning aside from context, unless you know kanji. Yes, there are words with a single kanji that have multiple meanings, but kanji definitely clears things up. Also, once you get the kanji you can generally understand the idea behind words much better, and get the gist of words made up of combinations of kanji you know even if you're not sure of the reading.

Otherwise, getting started in the language, the internet's the only way to do it cheap, so basically replace any costly-looking option with an internet alternative:

pick up movies & tv shows in Japanese- anime is a deep wellspring for this if you're into it, but sometimes the japanese it uses is a little bit unusual

pick up books & magazines - again, anime/manga is a good place

pick up music - not sure if you can stand jpop, jrap, or jrock, but there are a lot of options out there; I listen to Okinawan music myself.

make friends - join a local japanese society to take up language, drumming, koto, or origami lessons.

get a good dictionary - I'm going to go out on a limb and say pick up a strong electronic dictionary from Cannon Wordtank, Seiko, Casio XD-GW9600, or Sharp. I've got a Seiko SR-E10000 and I love the thing. It was labeled as "translators only" when I got it and it's really helped to bring up my level, i use it everyday.

get a good kanji learning book - you can use the pdfs from this site as a start, there are tons of kanji out there. The Basic Kanji books from Bonjinsha would be a good start. Don't forget the Kanji Practice pads either.

get a good grammar book - you could probably use a good textbook for this: Nakama, Minna no nihongo, Japanese for Everyone, Japanese for Busy People, Genki, yookoso, the UNICOM JLPT study guides, or others. Personally I think Japanese for Everyone might be the best starter book out there for self study- it's 1 volume and covers a lot. Pure grammar books include: A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, A Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar, and Making Sense of Japanese- all 3 are highly recommended.

penpals - join a penpal site, to force yourself to write sentences in japanese. sites for finding penpals include places like the hiragana times website and forums like here. in order to write japanese on a windows computer install IME from control panel - regional settings.

internet resources:
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/
http://www.thejapanesepage.com/news.php
http://www.kanji-a-day.com/index.php
http://japanese.about.com/library/blbeginkanji.htm
http://www.jlptstudy.com/forum/
http://www.jgram.org/index.php
http://mixi.jp/home.pl

The idea behind all of this is to flood yourself with exposure- even if you don't understand any of it, you'll get practice at discerning what you do understand. Plus, if you see/hear situational examples it will expand your vocabulary & understanding.
Be warned though, it takes a long time to really get what they're saying on TV.

[McCrank]

thanks for the help.

since im at the lowest possible newbie level of japanese atm it will indeed take a lot of time for me to understand what people are saying.

i do watch anime and i do have japanese music. also have alot of japanese talk shows that are subbed in english.

but since i will most likely never write japanese in any real life situation or even speak it.

is there any point to learning kanji then? because when people speak you only hear. you arent reading anything.

its like with my english. if you speak english to me i can understand you with no problems at all. but my writing and speaking is much poorer than my listening and understanding of english when its spoken to me.

this is kinda what i want to achieve.

though in the case of english i can also read everything.

[kichigaijin]

That's the thing I was trying to explain though, I think kanji helps you build your vocabulary to the point that learning vocabulary without the kanji to help you keep track of stuff can be harder.

btw- most japanese songs come with kanji lyrics, most anime have a certain amount of japanese writing in the background.

Otherwise, you'll basically be restricted to survival phrases; which you can pick up from the podcasts. If you don't want to study seriously, then just pick up the survival phrases.

[McCrank]

well then i dont have any choice but to learn kanji

i read that kids learn to write japanese in hiragana first.
also read that skipping romaji is good so you dont get any bad habits.

so wheres a good place to start?

[kichigaijin]

well hiragana & katakana if you don't have that already.

(Elementary School) First graders start learning the first 100 kanji and then it's 120 to 180 kanji every year after that until middle school.

In your case, a textbook like Japanese for Everyone or Genki might be a big help to get you started.

Read guidetojapanese.org too for lessons on grammar.

[Ulver_684]

Ive been wanting to learn japanese for quite some time. first i thought i could go to school for it but then i would learn a lot of stuff i dont need or want to learn.
so obviously i searched the net found this site. been looking around and listening to the podcasts etc.

what i was wondering what is the best way to start if you only want to be able to understand japanese when its spoken to you? like when you watch a japanese TV show. understanding what they say etc.

writing it with the use of only hiragana doesnt seem too difficult(but its never written like that). but kanji? like 2000 different kanji to learn and understand. as i understand it a japanese kid cant read the whole newspaper until hes in high school. so like i figured that writing with kanji, hiragana and katakana at the same time will take many many years to learn.

so when learning how to listen and understand japanese. what is the best way?

sorry if my english is poor. im norwegian.

EDIT: i guess just writing and learning with the use of romaji is the best way? since all the sounds are written in letters i already know.

McCrank-san!

I'm very happy to find another Norigean friend beside Solvi-san!

Please add me on your Mixi or let me know if you need a invitation ok, good luck on your studies!

[McCrank]

McCrank-san!

I'm very happy to find another Norigean friend beside Solvi-san!

Please add me on your Mixi or let me know if you need a invitation ok, good luck on your studies!

mixi?

and yeah i need luck. i really want to learn the language but self study is pretty hard. i have to learn like a ton of words and to top it off be able to write them in some totally new writing system where all the characters looks more like drawings than something you make sentences out of.

[nandemoii]

You don't have to learn kanjis and you don't have to study words in isolation or in sentences.

Use LONG texts with AUDIO.

I've been learning Japanese for some time now, but I have NEVER tried to learn kanjis. And what's more, I DO konw plenty of them. How is that possible?

The way I do it:

I use Japanese texts written both in kanji and only in hiragana.
The text is translated into a language I already know.
The Japanese text, the hiragana transcription and the translation are all placed in vertical columns side by side in the same page.
The Japanese texts are recorded by Japanese native speakers.

1. I read the translation to be able to understand what it is all about.
2. I listen to the Japanese text and SIMULTANEOUSLY look at the written text in Japanese.
3. I listen to the text and SIMULTANEOUSLY read the translation.
4. When I understand the text, I listen to it once or twice more and than go on doing other texts in the same way.

I do not try to learn kanji, what I am interested in is the story, not the language.

And the strange thing has happened:
Now I am able to type in planty of simple texts in Japanese using kanji.
And what's more I am able to recognize the kanjis in new texts and read them without any audio to support me.

By texts I mean TEXTS (a story, a joke, a newspaper article, a poem, a novel), not individual kanjis on their own.

That's true, I am not able to write kanjis by hand, but I hardly ever use a pen to write anything even in my mother tongue or English, and I write quite a lot.

I am sure that if it turns out necessary to do so, I will be able to master the stroke order in a relatively short time.

And now you can see:
something big above your head:
天。

[nandemoii]

I've no idea how to make vertical columns here, so I'll post only this, imagine the rest. The translation is into Polish, one of the languages I happen to know.

This was my FIRST contact with Japanese, believe it or not. The story was, of course, recorded by a Japanese actor.

羅生門 らしょうもん RASYOUMON brama w starym Kioto - Rashomon (opowiadanie Akutagawy, także film Kurosawy)
芥川龍之介 + あくたがわ りゅうのすけ Akutagawa Ryuunosuke 1892-1927

1 或日の暮方の事である。 1 Zdarzyło się to pewnego dnia pod wieczór.
或 日 の 暮方 の 事 で ある。 ある ひ の くれがた の こと で ある。 Aru hi no kuregata no koto de aru. pewien dzień no wieczór no rzecz jest.
2一人の下人が、羅生門の下で雨やみを待っていた。 2 Pewien sługa przeczekiwał deszcz pod bramą Rashomon.
一人 の 下人 が、 ひとり の げにん が、 Hitori no genin ga, Jeden no sługa ga,
羅生門 の 下 で らしょうもん の した で Rasyoumon no sita de Rashomon no pod de
雨やみ を あまやみ を amayami o przerwa w deszczu o
待っていた。 まって いた。 matte ita. czekał. matu, iru

[nandemoii]

And I forgot to add something very important.

NEVER try to speak before you're able to understand completely new texts or just sentences, they might be very simple, even something like the dialogs posted here, at this site.

[nandemoii]

And what is even more important, you can learn a few new languages at a time, they MUST be recorded by native speakers and the written texts should be placed side by side in VERTICAL columns in the same page.
Here they are not vertical (and there's no audio recording):

ROZDZIAŁ I Chapitre 1 Chapter 1 Capítulo 1 ГЛАВА I. 1.
W głąb króliczej nory Dans le terrier du lapin Down the Rabbit-Hole EN LA MADRIGUERA DEL CONEJO ВНИЗ ПО КРОЛИЧЬЕЙ НОРЕ うさぎ の 穴 を まっさかさま

Alicja czuła się już bardzo zmęczona tym, że siedzi obok siostry na pochyłym brzegu i nie ma nic do roboty; raz i drugi zerknęła do książki czytanej przez siostrę, ale nie było w niej obrazków ani rozmów: „a co za pożytek z książki - pomyślała Alicja - bez obrazków i rozmów?” text polski: tł. Robert Stiller
Alice commençait à se sentir très lasse de rester assise à côté de sa soeur, sur le talus, et de n’avoir rien à faire: une fois ou deux, elle avait jeté un coup d’oeil sur le livre que sa soeur lisait, mais il ne contenait ni images, ni conversation, «et, se disait Alice, à quoi peut bien servir un livre où il n’y a ni images ni conversations?»
Alice was beginning to get very tired of sitting by her sister on the bank, and of having nothing to do: once or twice she had peeped into the book her sister was reading, but it had no pictures or conversations in it, `and what is the use of a book,' thought Alice `without pictures or conversations?'
Alicia empezaba ya a cansarse de estar sentada con su hermana a la orilla del río, sin tener nada que hacer: había echado un par de ojeadas al libro que su hermana estaba leyendo, pero no tenía dibujos ni diálogos. «¿Y de qué sirve un libro sin dibujos ni diálogos?», se preguntaba Alicia.
Алисе начинало уже надоедать сидеть с сестрой на берегу без всякого занятия; пару раз она заглянула было в книжку, которую читала сестра, но там не было ни картинок, ни разговоров; «а зачем нужна книжка, — подумала Алиса, — в которой ни картинок, ни разговоров?»
アリス は 川辺 で おねえさん の よこ に すわって、 なんにも する こと が ない ので とても 退屈 し はじめて いました。一、 二回 は おねえさん の 読んで いる 本 を のぞいて みた けれど、 そこ に は 絵 も 会話 も ない の です。「絵 や 会話 の ない 本 なんて、 なんの 役 に も たたない じゃ ない の」 と アリス は 思いました。

[McCrank]

learning how to understand spoken japanese is what i kinda wanted to know when i made this thread.

so i kinda figured by learning words when spoken and basic sentence build up(the order of subject, object and verb is kinda crucial) i could start to understand basic japanese like "how old are you?" etc. like when you first learn english in school.

when thinking back on when i started to learn english. norwegian TV has alot of english programs(only good shows are in english so yeah) and i used to watch them when i was a kid not understanding anything except a few words. gradually understanding more as i learned grammar and new words in school.

but japanese is very very fast. if i watch a subtitled variety show. i cant hear what they are saying because they speak so fast. so what i hear doesnt make any sense to what is in the subtitle.(obviously a lot of it is because my vocab is like 0 since i just barely started out)

also english translated into norwegian is pretty straight forward most of the time.

Jeg vil kjøpe en bil
I want to buy a car

Jeg = I
vil = want to
kjøpe = buy
en bil = a car

japanese is messed up compared to this. making it pretty tough.


EDIT: so i listen to the podcasts and look at the .pdf files.

so a sentence like this (this is from the first newbie lesson)

Douzo yoroshiku

yeah ok its translated in the .pdf as "please be kind to me"

im there like what did just happen here. now i look at the explanation that douzo means please and yoroshiku is a polite form of the adjective yoroshii which means good or nice.

but what i would really like is a translation word for word aswell as it would really help me in how the sentences are built up.

so douzo youroshiku becomes "please good/nice". so now i know what each word is and my brain is like "please nice" what the hell. so i think oh yeah the person saying it might want the other person to be good/nice to her/him.

its like when people who dont know english at all try and speak english. they only say the words they know.

so they say "me... hungry" instead of "i am hungry".

[kichigaijin]

what nandemoii is talking about is parallel translations. while they are a useful learning tool, and I've been using them for years myself, I don't know that they work as well for me as a learning tool as he says they do for him. I ignored formal kanji study for years and while I can recognize a good number, I wouldn't say I know them eventhough I can recognize them.

McCrank, what you're talking about is word-for-word translation. Sources like Mangajin do this often. It helps sometimes, but you really only want that added as an intermediary step before you get to the final English.

[supaman]

If you want to just speak/understand Japanese for now you should get a good course and stick with it. I'd suggest Assimil if you want something fun, easy, and with updated speech. It's split up into two volumes, Volume 1 and Volume 2. If you can speak French better than English you can buy the same course in those languages from Assimil.com. The course (both volumes) is intended to be finished in 5-6 months (100 lessons and about 1 hour per lesson). When you open it up it tells you specifically how to use it.

I would suggest Beginning Japanese to you if you're willing to work really hard. The grammar drills and content are top notch, but the speech is outdated, and if anything it'll probably put you to sleep. There's also Genki, Nakama, and other methods. But they're also written oriented. I think you should take the language slowly anyways. Like a baby. First listening, speaking, then writing. For more information on the Assimil method click here for reviews and methods. Read the posts and it'll tell you how people alter the course for the most effective results. Oh, and all the courses that I listed (mainly Beginning Japanese and Assimil) are mainly audio oriented. Well hope this helps.