Linking two verbs

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

I was taught in the Gengo Japanese series when one verb directly follows another, the first goes into the ~te form. However, in this thread, Eric-san said:

The -masu stem is used when joining two verbs together. matsu + tsuzukeru -> machi tsuzukeru

Are both ways acceptable?

[community.japanese]

Andy-san,
yes, both pattern exist, but meanings are different.

When a verb takes te-form and then another one follows, it could mean you did A and you did B,
you did A to do B etc.
ex.
1. ame ga futte kita node, hashitte kaetta. [As it started to rain, I went back home running.]
=> Here, "hashitte kaetta" describes "to run" and "to go back home".
2. Kinyoubi no yoru wa, ie de terebi o mite yukkuri shiyou. [On Friday night, I'll watch TV at home and relax.]
=> Here "mite yukkurisuru" indicates "to watch" and "to relax".
3. yuubinkyoku e itte, ginkou ni itte, kaimono o shite kaerimasu. [(I'll) go to post office, go to bank, do shopping and go home.]
=> Unlike example 1 and 2, here "te-form" indicates some order of actions; "itte, itte, shite kaerimasu" here
means this person first "to go" and then "to go (another place)" and then "to do" and finally "to go back home".

Now what Eric-san said is a bit different from above case.
The pattern Eric-san explained works as [main verb] + [auxiliary verb]. And not all verbs can take this form.
ex.
1. densha ga okureta node, 1 jikan mo machi tsuzuketa. [because train delayed, I kept waiting for it for 1 hour]
=> "machi tsuzuketa" means "to keep waiting", and it's a combination of "matsu" (= to wait) and "tsuzukeru" (= to continue).
2. ame ga furi hajimeta. [It started raining.]
=> "furi hajimeta" here means rains started falling, and the combination is "furu" (= to fall, but rain, snow, etc.)
and "hajimeru" (= to begin).

Hope this helps!

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

LI S6 L12:

Seito ni kimigayo o utawaseru to kikimashita ga, sore wa hontō desu ka.
I heard that you make the students sing (the Japanese national anthem) "Kimi ga Yo;" is that true?

I thought it was incorrect to link two verbs together with "to" until I saw this. When is it acceptable?

[thegooseking]

Andyさん、

LI S6 L12:

Seito ni kimigayo o utawaseru to kikimashita ga, sore wa hontō desu ka.
I heard that you make the students sing (the Japanese national anthem) "Kimi ga Yo;" is that true?

I thought it was incorrect to link two verbs together with "to" until I saw this. When is it acceptable?

As far as I understand it, in this case, 'to' doesn't mean 'and'; it serves the function that 'that' does in English. Kiku can only take a direct object if it's a 'thing', such as "uta wo kiku". If it's something that's being expressed, you have to use 'to'. In this case, the person is not talking about a 'thing' that they heard, such as a song or a message or a radio programme, but rather the content of that thing, which cannot be a direct object for kiku. I think the same applies to other verbs of expression and perception.

You would also use 'to' if you were directly quoting:-
Yamada-san wa "Seito ni kimigayo wo utawaseru" to iimashita. Demo, sore wa hontō desu ka.

Regards,
小狼

[thegooseking]

I should add that there is another way 'to' can be used to link verbs, and that's when 'to' comes at the end of a clause.

[Verb 1] to, [Verb 2]

This doesn't mean "[Verb 1] and [Verb 2]", but rather "If/when [Verb 1], then [Verb 2]".

Shibuya e iku to, issho ni ikimasu.
If you go to Shibuya, I'll go with you.

I can't tell you very much about this, because I don't exactly know when it would be used, but at least you'll be able to understand it if you see it. As far as I'm concerned (bearing in mind that I'm no expert!), the normal way to form this kind of conditional is to use the e-form + 'ba'. E.g.:-

Shibuya e ikeba, issho ni ikimasu.

I would recommend sticking with that until you can find someone more competent to tell you when you can use the plain form + 'to'.

小狼

[community.japanese]

Andy-san, 小狼さん、
Thank you for the help, 小狼san
That's very correct. The word "to" in that sentence works like "that" in English: quotation.

I should add that there is another way 'to' can be used to link verbs, and that's when 'to' comes at the end of a clause.

[Verb 1] to, [Verb 2]

This doesn't mean "[Verb 1] and [Verb 2]", but rather "If/when [Verb 1], then [Verb 2]".

Shibuya e iku to, issho ni ikimasu.
If you go to Shibuya, I'll go with you.

That's a good example! I just want to give some notes about this usage of "to".
When you use "to" with the meaning of "if" or "when", there's restriction regarding the expressions you
can use at the end of the sentence. Same applies to "ba".
Those sentences are, unfortunately, not very correct in that sense. So, let's change abit:
Ima kara Shibuya ni iku to, yakusoku no jikan ni maniaimasen.
(If you go to Shibuya now, you can't make it on time ---this situation is where "you" have to be somewhere else
by certain time, and if "you" go to Shibuya before going to that place, "you" cannot make it to arrive on time
where "you" are supposed to be.)
Ashita Shibuya ni iku to, kare ni aemasu yo.
(If you go to Shibuya tomorrow, you can see him.)

As to "Shibuya ni ikeba, issho ni ikemasu", I'm not sure what the situation is. It could be
Shibuya ni kureba, issho ni ikemasu. - If you come to Shibuya, we can go together (to somewhere).


Natsuko (奈津子)
Team JapanesePod101.com

[thegooseking]

Natsuko-sensei, Andy-san,

Thanks for the explanation, Natsuko-sensei. I'll try again, and see if I'm any closer to getting it right

1) If I have it right, then, 'to' does carry a slight sense of 'and' after all, since it's essentially saying "If A will happen, B will also happen (as a consequence)."

Shibuya ni iku to, ippai hito wo mimasu.
If you go to Shibuya, you will see lots of people.

Nihongo de hanasu to, nihongo de hanasenai hito ni yoi inshou wo ataemasu.
If you speak in Japanese, you will impress people who don't (can't) speak in Japanese.

2) I guess that my example in my previous post would more correctly be:-
Shibuya ni ittara, issho ni ikimasu.
If you go to Shibuya, I will go with you.
The '-tara' ending carries a sense of "in that case".

Nihongo de hanashitaraba, watashi mo nihongo de hanashimasu.
If you speak in Japanese, I will also speak in Japanese.
You will sometimes see '-taraba', but this is closer in meaning to '-tara' than '-ba'; just more formal.

3) -ba is more for when you don't have a natural consequence or a sense of "in that case". It's more of a 'plain' conditional.
Shibuya ni ikeba, tanoshinde kudasai.
If you go to Shibuya, please have fun.

Nihongo wo hanaseba, ii desu ne.
Wouldn't it be good if I could speak Japanese?


Kono kubetsu ga tadashii dattara, renshuu shinakereba dame desu.
If these distinctions are correct, I must practice them. (Lit. "If these distinctions are correct, if I don't practice them, it's no good." - I'm a computer scientist: I'm used to nested 'if's and double negation! )
...But that will have to come later.

Ja, mata,
小狼

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

Andyさん、

LI S6 L12:

Seito ni kimigayo o utawaseru to kikimashita ga, sore wa hontō desu ka.
I heard that you make the students sing (the Japanese national anthem) "Kimi ga Yo;" is that true?

I thought it was incorrect to link two verbs together with "to" until I saw this. When is it acceptable?

As far as I understand it, in this case, 'to' doesn't mean 'and'; it serves the function that 'that' does in English. Kiku can only take a direct object if it's a 'thing', such as "uta wo kiku". If it's something that's being expressed, you have to use 'to'. In this case, the person is not talking about a 'thing' that they heard, such as a song or a message or a radio programme, but rather the content of that thing, which cannot be a direct object for kiku. I think the same applies to other verbs of expression and perception.

You would also use 'to' if you were directly quoting:-
Yamada-san wa "Seito ni kimigayo wo utawaseru" to iimashita. Demo, sore wa hontō desu ka.

Regards,
小狼

So it's a quotation?

"Seito ni kimigayo o utawaseru" to kikimashita.

Duh.

[thegooseking]

So it's a quotation?

"Seito ni kimigayo o utawaseru" to kikimashita.

It can be, although 'quotation' implies "in those exact words", which isn't always the case when you see 'to'.

But it does mark a statement (whether in exact words or not) that someone either: expressed, perceived, or thought about.

So you could begin with:-
Seito ni kimigayo o utawaseru...

And then have:-
...to kikimashita. ("I heard that you make students sing Kimi ga Yo.")
...to mimashita. ("I saw that you make...")
...to yomimashita. ("I read that you make...")
...to iimashita. ("I said that you make...")
...to kakimashita. ("I wrote that you make...")
...to misemashita. ("I showed that you make...")
...to omoimasu. ("I think that you make...")
...to shinjimasu. ("I believe that you make...")
...and so on (if there are any examples I missed, which there probably are).

小狼

[community.japanese]

小狼さん、 Andy-san,
It seems 小狼さん has understood the "to" very correctly

Those "tara", "ba" etc. are not straightforward if we use the translation, so I'd like to give a bit more insights.

2) I guess that my example in my previous post would more correctly be:-
Shibuya ni ittara, issho ni ikimasu.
If you go to Shibuya, I will go with you.
The '-tara' ending carries a sense of "in that case".

Nihongo de hanashitaraba, watashi mo nihongo de hanashimasu.
If you speak in Japanese, I will also speak in Japanese.
You will sometimes see '-taraba', but this is closer in meaning to '-tara' than '-ba'; just more formal.

First about these two: when you use "tara(ba)", there's certain restriction about ending expressions you can
use. Moreover, in the pattern of "A tara B", the part A is the "condition for B to realise/happen".
In "if you go to Shibuya, I'll go with you", "you go to Shibuya" is not really "condition" to
"I'll go with you" to happen. What I mean by "condition for something to realise" is, for example,
"if you press this button, the machine starts working" kind of "condition".

Please also remember a very important bit; when "a subject" or "a topic" changes in one sentence,
you cannot omit the subject or topic. You can omit something only if that is a very obvious information.
Taking the example of your second sentence,
"anata ga nihongo de hanasu nara, watashi mo nihongo de hanashimasu".
The suitable functional word here would be "nara" and you can't omit subject.

3) -ba is more for when you don't have a natural consequence or a sense of "in that case". It's more of a 'plain' conditional.
Shibuya ni ikeba, tanoshinde kudasai.
If you go to Shibuya, please have fun.

Nihongo wo hanaseba, ii desu ne.
Wouldn't it be good if I could speak Japanese?

Like I wrote above, there's certain restriction regarding ending expressions you can use, and "kudasai" (asking
a favour) is not allowed to use. As to the second sentence, the nuance of "could" has to be included in Japanese too.
So, those would be
"Shibuya ni iku nara, tanoshinde kudasai."
"Nihongo o hanasereba ii desu ne."

Kono kubetsu ga tadashii dattara, renshuu shinakereba dame desu.
If these distinctions are correct, I must practice them. (Lit. "If these distinctions are correct, if I don't practice them, it's no good." - I'm a computer scientist: I'm used to nested 'if's and double negation! )
...But that will have to come later.

There are two very important points to advise you here: conjugation "tadashi kereba" and "...nakereba naimasen".
I think you need to revise conjugation for "ba" using i-adjectives. It's "tadashi kereba", not "tadashii dattara".
This is a very common mistake, so I understand. Before getting used to the wrong conjugations, please
revise the lesson and practice the correct conjugation first
As to "dame desu", this is a very casual and colloquial expression we also use. However, this is not grammatically
correct. I want you to get used first to the correct ones: ...nakereba naranai (OR narimasen).


Andy-san,
yes, that was a quotation "to"

Natsuko (奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[thegooseking]

Natsuko-sensei,

Thanks again for your help!

First about these two: when you use "tara(ba)", there's certain restriction about ending expressions you can
use. Moreover, in the pattern of "A tara B", the part A is the "condition for B to realise/happen".
In "if you go to Shibuya, I'll go with you", "you go to Shibuya" is not really "condition" to
"I'll go with you" to happen. What I mean by "condition for something to realise" is, for example,
"if you press this button, the machine starts working" kind of "condition".

Oh dear. I am actually quite embarrassed about this - my mistake was far more fundamental than getting the grammar wrong; it was getting the hiragana wrong. I read なら and thought I read たら If I had listened to a lesson on it rather than reading about it, I would have got the difference. So, I guess everything I said about 'tara' there, I actually meant 'nara'. Well, no, I meant 'tara', but I was wrong because I apparently can't read.

Still, embarrassment is a good teacher

Please also remember a very important bit; when "a subject" or "a topic" changes in one sentence,
you cannot omit the subject or topic. You can omit something only if that is a very obvious information.
Taking the example of your second sentence,
"anata ga nihongo de hanasu nara, watashi mo nihongo de hanashimasu".
The suitable functional word here would be "nara" and you can't omit subject.

So, to put this in my own words to make sure I understand it: I can only change a topic if I've previously in the sentence made the topic explicit. Is that right? I can't change the topic from an implied topic to an explicit topic?

Like I wrote above, there's certain restriction regarding ending expressions you can use, and "kudasai" (asking a favour) is not allowed to use. As to the second sentence, the nuance of "could" has to be included in Japanese too.
So, those would be
"Shibuya ni iku nara, tanoshinde kudasai."
"Nihongo o hanasereba ii desu ne."

Right, having figured out where I went wrong with nara and tara, I think I can see this more clearly. Nara is the hypothetical form of desu, so "Shibuya ni iku nara, tanoshinde kudasai" is less like "If you go to Shibuya" and more like "If it is the case that you go to Shibuya". So "Please have fun" is not a result of going to Shibuya, but a result of the matter of "going to Shibuya" being true. Maybe it's difficult to explain in English, but am I anywhere in the right area?

Ah, of course. This was a very careless mistake: Ichidan verbs (like hanaseru) don't have an -a or -i base and endings just get attached to the stem, but they do have an -e base which I forgot about.

Kono kubetsu ga tadashii dattara, renshuu shinakereba dame desu.
If these distinctions are correct, I must practice them. (Lit. "If these distinctions are correct, if I don't practice them, it's no good." - I'm a computer scientist: I'm used to nested 'if's and double negation! )
...But that will have to come later.

There are two very important points to advise you here: conjugation "tadashi kereba" and "...nakereba naimasen".
I think you need to revise conjugation for "ba" using i-adjectives. It's "tadashi kereba", not "tadashii dattara".
This is a very common mistake, so I understand. Before getting used to the wrong conjugations, please
revise the lesson and practice the correct conjugation first
As to "dame desu", this is a very casual and colloquial expression we also use. However, this is not grammatically
correct. I want you to get used first to the correct ones: ...nakereba naranai (OR narimasen).

Another careless mistake: i-adjectives get conjugated, while na/no adjectives have the copula conjugated. This is one of those things that seemed so obvious to me when I learned it that I didn't think it needed much practice. But you're right: I definitely need to practice it more. I don't know where I got "nakereba dame desu" from, though - that doesn't even look right to me, now.

小狼

[community.japanese]

子狼さん、

Still, embarrassment is a good teacher

No need for feeling embarrassed! I like your spirit

So, to put this in my own words to make sure I understand it: I can only change a topic if I've previously in the sentence made the topic explicit. Is that right? I can't change the topic from an implied topic to an explicit topic?

It was rather about omittion, actually. You can change topic at any time, but you can't omit any words
when it's not obvious.
In normal sentence "anata ga/wa nihongo de hanashimasu", yoy might drop "anata ga/wa" in conversation,
or "watashi ga/wa", right? However, the sentence:
"anata ga nihongo de hanasu nara, watashi mo nihongo de hanashimasu".
the first half is "(if) you speak Japanese" and the latter half is "I (also) speak Japanese".
The action taker (= subject) is different in one same sentence. In this case, you can't omit "watashi mo"
part. If the conversation was always about "anata" (= you) and in some sentences in was not mentioned (dropped),
you can continue omitting it unless you need to clarify the topic for some reason.
Does this make sense?

... so "Shibuya ni iku nara, tanoshinde kudasai" is less like "If you go to Shibuya" and more like "If it is the case that you go to Shibuya". So "Please have fun" is not a result of going to Shibuya, but a result of the matter of "going to Shibuya" being true. Maybe it's difficult to explain in English, but am I anywhere in the right area?

I'd say it's what you want to say on or with condition. Your comment (i.e. "please enjoy") is applicable "only if"
the condition (i.e. this person going to Shibuya) is applicable/realisable.
Yes, it's difficult to explain in English because English doesn't have this much detailed connotations...

We often use "instruction how to use copy machine" to explain differences and usages of "tara", "nara" etc.
A: コピーをしたいのですが。どうすればいいですか。
B: このボタンをおしたら、赤いランプがつきます。ランプが緑になったら、スタートできますよ。
A: ５枚、コピーしたいのですが。
B: 複数コピーするなら、このボタンで部数を選んでからスタートボタンを押してください。
When a condition before "tara" happens, the latter part realises. In order to even say "please choose the number
of copies before you press the start buttom", you need "condition" which is the person A doing more than one copy.
Hope this helps

Natsuko (奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[thegooseking]

To bring this up again, I want to make sure I have tenses right when using 'to'.

"He said that he was going to Tokyo" would be "Kare wa Tōkyō ni itte iru to iimashita".
"He said that he had eaten" would be "Kare wa tabeta to iimashita".

Is this right?

In the first example, in English we change the present 'say' to the past tense 'said' and the present progressive "is going" to the past-progressive "was going". But in Japanese we only change 'iimasu' to 'iimashita'?

In the second example, in English 'said' is past tense and "had eaten" is pluperfect, but in Japanese both verbs are just past tense?

小狼

[community.japanese]

Hello 小狼さん、
Kare wa Tōkyō ni itte iru to iimashita means ‘he is on the way to Tokyo’ so I think you wanted to say ‘Kare wa Tokyo ni iku to iimashita’.
You can use ‘itteimasu’ and ‘itteimashita’, too.
English past perfect tense have four features, continuation, experience, completion and result.
It depends on what you want to show in the sentence.
Continuation: kare wa tabeteita to iimashita.
Experience: kare wa tabetakotogaaru to iimashita.
Completion: kare wa tabeta to iimashita.
Result: kare wa (sudeni) tabeta to iimashita.
Yuki 由紀
Team JapanesePod101.com