Baai & Tara

[Pete171]

Hey,

I've been following the Beginner series through and I have a few questions regarding the grammar points on #97 and #98. Through listening to the audio and reading the PDFs, I gather that "baai" can be quite closely translated to "if", whereas "tara" seems to be more dependant on context and can mean either "when" or "if". The PDF also states that using moshi before the noun clears up any ambiguity as to the meaning of "tara", but I'm a little confused.

If anyone wouldn't mind, would they be able to explain more clearly the translation and usage of both of these words, perhaps with an example or two included? Any help you can give would be great!

Thanks

[Javizy]

Literally, 場合(ばあい) means 'case, instance, occasion, time', but can also be used to mean 'if, when'. The former meaning is quite simple to understand through examples:

冗談の場合じゃないよ!
This is no time for jokes!
この場合は「A」が正しい。
In this case, A is correct.

The latter meaning is closer to 時(とき) than たら, but it's suppositional, so it has to be used about something that hasn't happened yet, and may or may not take place. It has a nuance of 'in the case that/of '.

火災の場合は非常口を使ってください。
In case of fire/if there is a fire, please use the emergency exit.
社長が出席しない場合は会議が中止になります。
In the case that/if the director does not attend, the meeting will be cancelled.
火災の時/場合*はすごいドキドキしてた!
At the time of the fire, my heart was going a mile a minute.

The easiest way to understand たら is by understanding its sequential nature. In a たら construction, the action in the first clause has to take place BEFORE that in the second clause. Whether or not it is interpreted as 'if' or 'when' depends on the certainty of the first clause.

日が沈んだら寝る。
When the sun sets, I go to bed.

This is interpreted as 'when', because there's no doubting that the sun will set at some point. He goes to bed AFTER the sun sets, which sticks with the sequential nature of the construction.

つまらなくなったら早寝する。
If I get bored, I go to bed early.

This is interpreted as 'if' because the guy isn't necessarily going to get bored every night, and therefore won't always go to bed early. Notice again though, that he has to be bored BEFORE he will go to bed early.

Hopefully this clears some things up for you, but you really want to understand these two constructions in conjunction with と、ば、なら, and 時 to be able to choose the right one at the right time.

[Pete171]

Thanks a lot Javizy, that helped a load! Sorry to be a pain, but I have another question, if you don't mind answering it...

PDF #97 says:
"Jon ga kitara, watashi wa kaerimasu"
"If/when John Comes, I will go home."

I can see the ambiguity of that sentence clearly enough, but apparently adding "Moshi" before "Jon" makes this a definate "if" statement. Does moshi always work to clarify the meaning of "if" in such circumstances.

Thanks once again for the reply

[Javizy]

もし, like たとえ, is what I'd call a signal word. Since the clause will make sense without them, they're redundant in a sense, but during long complicated clauses, and especially in spoken language, they help to signal the direction that the sentence is going in. This isn't something English speakers can relate to, since verbs come much earlier in the sentence.

In the case of もし, the usage is dependent on the speaker, even if the sentence is ambiguous. However, it will be perfectly clear from context a lot of the time. Your example is ambiguous on its own, but if we know that John gets home from work at 7pm sharp every day, it becomes very obvious how to interpret たら.