Can anyone check/correct my Japanese please?

[Javizy]

Well, you referred to N-level Jap, so I thought you were studying Japanese formally. I write my post in fully conversational language, so if you know lots of it, you should be able to understand what I am saying.

You've written all of your posts in fully broken language. This has nothing to do with the distinction between written and spoken styles, and has everything to do with you knowing nothing about Japanese, which has become the theme of the thread.

Perhaps, more expressively, "it's all my mother-in-law's fault; that old fool is always bugging me :Learn japanese." ("ku-san datte minna; mainichi mainichi ni pera-pera shita [benkyou sure nihongo o!] anna baka hitori datto") with all the necessary gesticulations. It also sounds like anime/manga/movie language much more, yo?

This is absolute nonsense. The Japanese isn't even comprehensible, and the English suggestion is ridiculous. I was trying to be friendly and attempted to answer your question with some generic responses you might understand. I guess that was my mistake.

I think it's about time the thread was locked anyway. This is just going in circles.

[arixion7914]

I don't know what you mean by "metagrammar", but there's no particular similarity between Chinese and Japanese grammar. If you want to recast it as Chinese, you can try, but it still has conjugations in any practical sense. The word "morpheme" apply in the way you're trying to use it, because the term is used for parts of English words, as well, including the conjugations.

"Meta-grammar" means the grammar of grammar. To give an analogy with programming languages, the specific control structures in each language have different syntax, but they perform the same functions. In the same way, Japanese grammar follows Japanese semantics (naturally), but uses a Chinese mode for constructing each unit. And I think that is accurate, because technically Japanese - like Chinese - does not have nouns, adjectives, adverbs and post-positions. What it has are nominal nouns, adjectival nouns, adverbal nouns and post-positional indicator nouns. That is because, at the end of the day, Japanese is still based off kanji, and kanji do not "conjugate", at least not in the Western sense of the word. If you studied Chinese before, you should have an idea how kanji works in Chinese. The specifics of Chinese and Japanese grammar are different, because both cultures have different ways of viewing the world, but the way in which kanji and kana are viewed are the same. Incidentally, there is a term for Japanese Kanji sentences or phrases which are written according to Chinese grammar, although I can't remember what it is. Generally though, in Japanese, if you can express a meaning in pure kanji, you are allowed to "conjugate" the kanji according to Chinese grammar; that does happen quite a lot of times in Japanese newspapers and technical books, and also songs. The only additional condition for this is that the kanji are direct imports from Chinese, so you couldn't combine "benkyou nihongo" because "benkyou" means "forced" in Chinese and is an adjectival noun, whereas Japanese uses it in verbal-noun "study".

[arixion7914]

Well, you referred to N-level Jap, so I thought you were studying Japanese formally. I write my post in fully conversational language, so if you know lots of it, you should be able to understand what I am saying.

You've written all of your posts in fully broken language. This has nothing to do with the distinction between written and spoken styles, and has everything to do with you knowing nothing about Japanese, which has become the theme of the thread.

Perhaps, more expressively, "it's all my mother-in-law's fault; that old fool is always bugging me :Learn japanese." ("ku-san datte minna; mainichi mainichi ni pera-pera shita [benkyou sure nihongo o!] anna baka hitori datto") with all the necessary gesticulations. It also sounds like anime/manga/movie language much more, yo?

This is absolute nonsense. The Japanese isn't even comprehensible, and the English suggestion is ridiculous. I was trying to be friendly and attempted to answer your question with some generic responses you might understand. I guess that was my mistake.

I think it's about time the thread was locked anyway. This is just going in circles.

Javizy,

I wonder ... do you find these broken:-

koko ni iru no wa watashi no ishi da: ichi seimeitai to shite seijiteki boomei o kibo o suru. (Here is my will: As a ghost, I request political asylum.)

ima kara nijuugo-fun go Nishiku Kouen de hito jichi to ko o kansuru so desu. (she says that she will hand over the hostage in 25 minutes at Nishiku Park.)

I plucked these sentences directly out of a research paper on Japanese language. These are examples of Japanese language as used in real life. First example is from a very popular anime, and the second is a news report. And because these are published, they are not even the most informal language around. Unfortuantely, the book which actually analyzes Japanese morphetic patterns based on real-life conversations conducted in an experimental setting cannot be found online. You would balk if you read the "ungrammatical" Japanese spoken by the test subjects, who are all native, Tokyo-born residents.

If you don't find these ungrammatical, then tell me how my Japanese differs from these; I really do want to know. That is what I regard as conversational Japanese. As for the English, why is it ridiculous; have you sincerely not heard such a phrase before? I was also trying to be friendly and trying to open the conversation again, but now it appears that you don't even know your own language, because real-life people do speak like that. I am writing really colloquially, and understandably not in a form that would appear in novels or research papers or interviews, but would occur at a pub, or a college dorm or somewhere similar? you know, in real life?

I shall try one last time to be civil: I wasn't asking for generic responses; I was asking you for specific replies with emotion attached. I am here to learn conversational variety, not prosaic "generic" responses. Do you give such prosaic responses in real-life outside of interviews?

Try this:

"今日会ったオオバさんて人、としの友達の中から探したけどいないよー！！""kyou atta o-oba-san te nin , Toshi no tomodachi no naka kara sagashita kedo inai yo !" (I can't find anyone better than the aunt I met today and Toshi's friends!!)

Not very grammatical, is it? Although ... I plucked this sentence directly off a friend's facebook page, and it so happens that this friend is native Japanese. (Well, a friend of a friend actually, but that is not very relevant.) Feel free to offer a different translation. By all means.

[Javizy]

You would balk if you read the "ungrammatical" Japanese spoken by the test subjects, who are all native, Tokyo-born residents.

I've spoken to natives from all over Japan at length, so I'm afraid it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

tell me how my Japanese differs from these; I really do want to know.

Where do I begin? You're a complete beginner and they're natives - try working it out yourself.

I am writing really colloquially, and understandably not in a form that would appear in novels or research papers or interviews, but would occur at a pub, or a college dorm or somewhere similar? you know, in real life?

You're not writing colloquially, and this has nothing to do with formality. You're a beginner and your Japanese is understandably bad. Speaking verbosely about irrelevant nonsense does nothing to change that.

"今日会ったオオバさんて人、としの友達の中から探したけどいないよー！！""kyou atta o-oba-san te nin , Toshi no tomodachi no naka kara sagashita kedo inai yo !" (I can't find anyone better than the aunt I met today and Toshi's friends!!)

Not very grammatical, is it?

It's perfectly "grammatical" and your translation (as well as the romaji) is completely wrong. The use of (っ)て and omitting particles are typical of spoken Japanese. I often speak to my friends in a similar style; you, on the other hand, don't know what you're talking about.

Anyway, you're clearly not going to give up, but I am. I'll leave you with some actual colloquial Japanese, not the botched nonsense you try to pass off as such. Notice how it makes sense, whereas what you say doesn't. A selection of my friend's reactions to some of your sentences. She's from Osaka.

なにい
に　と　で　は同時に使えないすね
イミフ
よめない…
???????
とりあえず前半しか何が言いたいのかわからん
....
言いたいことだけはわかる

[arixion7914]

You would balk if you read the "ungrammatical" Japanese spoken by the test subjects, who are all native, Tokyo-born residents.

I've spoken to natives from all over Japan at length, so I'm afraid it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

tell me how my Japanese differs from these; I really do want to know.

Where do I begin? You're a complete beginner and they're natives - try working it out yourself.

I am writing really colloquially, and understandably not in a form that would appear in novels or research papers or interviews, but would occur at a pub, or a college dorm or somewhere similar? you know, in real life?

You're not writing colloquially, and this has nothing to do with formality. You're a beginner and your Japanese is understandably bad. Speaking verbosely about irrelevant nonsense does nothing to change that.

"今日会ったオオバさんて人、としの友達の中から探したけどいないよー！！""kyou atta o-oba-san te nin , Toshi no tomodachi no naka kara sagashita kedo inai yo !" (I can't find anyone better than the aunt I met today and Toshi's friends!!)

Not very grammatical, is it?

It's perfectly "grammatical" and your translation (as well as the romaji) is completely wrong. The use of (っ)て and omitting particles are typical of spoken Japanese. I often speak to my friends in a similar style; you, on the other hand, don't know what you're talking about.

Anyway, you're clearly not going to give up, but I am. I'll leave you with some actual colloquial Japanese, not the botched nonsense you try to pass off as such. Notice how it makes sense, whereas what you say doesn't. A selection of my friend's reactions to some of your sentences. She's from Osaka.

なにい
に　と　で　は同時に使えないすね
イミフ
よめない…
???????
とりあえず前半しか何が言いたいのかわからん
....
言いたいことだけはわかる

Javizy,

(1) That's good to hear.

(2) Now let's see; that's not helpful in the least. As I have said about five times on this thread, I am willing to accept corrections, but I would prefer to learn colloquial form rather than the formal form of writing.

(3) And I wasn't talking verbosely about nonsense. The relation between Chinese and Japanese is an important acedemic field of study in History and Linguistics. It's fine if you disagree with me, but well, it is only polite to offer a reasoned defence of the counter-position, instead of shouting down like this. Thankfully, I know that most English people are not as rude as you are.

Interestingly, earlier on in this thread, I wrote an entire post in Japanese Romaji with the English translation below it. If you were really sincere about helping me with my Japanese, you would have helped me correct it, grammar and all, instead of spending several posts grandstanding on how great your conversational Japanese is compared to mine. As always, I ended my post with "chigatara kawatta-kudasai o kuremasu" which is literally, for me, "Please correct My Japanese if it is wrong". Did you not see that before blasting your hot air at me?

(4) Yes, I know about "te" and "omitting particles". I offered what I found as the most plausible translation in the context (1 facebook photo and knowing what went on at my uni last week), but yes - I readily admit - I am not fluent in Japanese writing. Perhaps the intermediate punctuation was closer to use as the English comma, rather than the Chinese dun-hao. So, I'll offer another translation: "The auntie I met today is cooler than any of Toshi's friends!!" Interlinear: "today met auntie person, toshi 's friends 's inside searched but no good !!!" With particles: "kyou ni atta o-oba-san o nin wa, toshi no tomodachi no naka kara ni sagashita wa kedo inai yo!" Feel absolutely free to correct it!!

(5) Why don't you provide me with all of her comments? Or does your stuck-up head think that I am too dumb to read them?

And yes, I am not stopping until I get a decent discussion. "decent" means firstly, don't try attacking my knowledge of Chinese or English. I speak the latter at native-level fluency and the former at near-native, as I was just told by a Chinese friend tonight. Plus, I bother reading books and research papers on Linguistics. I have a sufficient command of English to study effectively in an English University, and I have studied Chinese for more than a decade, as well as using it to speak to my elders and relatives. j_bertoni has the right to question about Chinese, since he knows some Chinese. You, on the other hand, haven't proven that you know any Chinese, so you ahve no qualification to comment on my knowledge of kanji in Chinese.

Just like bertoni has the right to raise a point about Chinese, I have the right to raise a point about Japanese. You are entitled to disagree with it, but not merely shoot it down. Why I write my "long verbose" posts is so that I can deal with every objection in excellent detail. I deserve the same from you, it's only fair.

[toonygal5459]

(2) Now let's see; that's not helpful in the least. As I have said about five times on this thread, I am willing to accept corrections, but I would prefer to learn colloquial form rather than the formal form of writing.
...
As always, I ended my post with "chigatara kawatta-kudasai o kuremasu" which is literally, for me, "Please correct My Japanese if it is wrong". Did you not see that before blasting your hot air at me?

I've read every post you've made in this thread, but I can't find even one instance where you asked for corrections, let alone five. But in any case, it's: 間違いがあれば直してください / Machigai ga areba naoshite kudasai.

And yes, I am not stopping until I get a decent discussion. "decent" means firstly, don't try attacking my knowledge of Chinese or English. I speak the latter at native-level fluency and the former at near-native, as I was just told by a Chinese friend tonight. Plus, I bother reading books and research papers on Linguistics. I have a sufficient command of English to study effectively in an English University, and I have studied Chinese for more than a decade, as well as using it to speak to my elders and relatives. j_bertoni has the right to question about Chinese, since he knows some Chinese. You, on the other hand, haven't proven that you know any Chinese, so you ahve no qualification to comment on my knowledge of kanji in Chinese.

No one has questioned your ability to speak English or Chinese. The only thing anyone has done is rightly try to get you to see that you were presenting poor examples of Japanese. You've been trying to point out flaws in other people's perfectly correct Japanese, while "reasoning" away the legitimate corrections they try to give you. ("I'm only interested in casual Japanese so that grammar stuff doesn't apply to me" and so on.)

I'm done with this thread, but just wanted to say thank you to Javizy and j_bertoni for posting. You guys said everything I was too timid to say... so thanks. :)

[arixion7914]

(2) Now let's see; that's not helpful in the least. As I have said about five times on this thread, I am willing to accept corrections, but I would prefer to learn colloquial form rather than the formal form of writing.
...
As always, I ended my post with "chigatara kawatta-kudasai o kuremasu" which is literally, for me, "Please correct My Japanese if it is wrong". Did you not see that before blasting your hot air at me?

I've read every post you've made in this thread, but I can't find even one instance where you asked for corrections, let alone five. But in any case, it's: 間違いがあれば直してください / Machigai ga areba naoshite kudasai.

And yes, I am not stopping until I get a decent discussion. "decent" means firstly, don't try attacking my knowledge of Chinese or English. I speak the latter at native-level fluency and the former at near-native, as I was just told by a Chinese friend tonight. Plus, I bother reading books and research papers on Linguistics. I have a sufficient command of English to study effectively in an English University, and I have studied Chinese for more than a decade, as well as using it to speak to my elders and relatives. j_bertoni has the right to question about Chinese, since he knows some Chinese. You, on the other hand, haven't proven that you know any Chinese, so you ahve no qualification to comment on my knowledge of kanji in Chinese.

No one has questioned your ability to speak English or Chinese. The only thing anyone has done is rightly try to get you to see that you were presenting poor examples of Japanese. You've been trying to point out flaws in other people's perfectly correct Japanese, while "reasoning" away the legitimate corrections they try to give you. ("I'm only interested in casual Japanese so that grammar stuff doesn't apply to me" and so on.)

I'm done with this thread, but just wanted to say thank you to Javizy and j_bertoni for posting. You guys said everything I was too timid to say... so thanks.

Sigh,

(1) Well, I did mention five times that I am willing to accept corrections provided they come with explanations. (In fact, did you notice that short post that redirected me to lang-8?)

(2) I absolutely didn't point out flaws in anyone else's Japanese; I wonder where everyone got that impression from. I said that your Japanese is CORRECT, but it's NOT THE ONLY VERSION. That is worlds away from "correcting" you or anyone else on this thread. It's clear, from this thread, that you people's Japanese are like 30% of my Chinese: you know all the grammar rules, but you can't explain any of them, except in very vague terms.

Back to our two points of argument (which people seem to have forgot): "-tai tame ni" versus "-ru tame ni" and "-nai itara naranai" versus "-nareba naranai".

For the first, what is the difference between the "-tai" and "-ru" that doesn't allow the former to express purpose, even personal informal purpose. If you went to Japan for holiday and told your tour guide (in Japanese), "I came to Japan because I wanted to see Mount Fuji" (i.e. "-tai tame ni") versus "I came to Japan to see Mount Fuji" (i.e. "-ru tame ni"), how differently is the listener going to treat each sentence? If there is a different sense, what is it? Is the second more casual than the first? Is the second more polite or stronger than the first? Does the first sound less polished than the second?

When I didn't get that sort of answer, I tried to work the answer out myself, which is where the discussion on Chinese influences on Japanese came in. But sadly, all my attempt for engagement got was Javizy blasting me for my lack of knowledge of kanji. The irony - a Londoner blasting an Ethnic Chinese for not knowing the Chinese language!! It would be worth a Monty Python sketch if it wasn't so rude.

For the second, only Jessi pointed out that the correct form is "nakattara naranai"; the rest of you were simply hollering "it's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong" And why is "-nakareba" preferable over "-nakattara" since both have the same dictionary meanings?

You - especially Javizy - are the kind of teachers that I rather not have. The kind of teachers who not only are unwilling to accept that they don't know everything, but also when their students try to ask for clarification or explanation, merely brush them away with "I am your teacher, so I am right; Just listen to me; you are the student, so you have no right to correct me". Eastern philosophers like Confucius would disagree, "Amongst three people, at least two will be my teachers" says Confucius. Something for you all to bear in mind.

I guess that I am not going to get any more out of this discussion, so I am going to leave too. I do hope that you people will be more rational the next time we meet?

I'll end off with a question I want all of you to ponder: Are you truly passionate about Japanese itself, or only passionate about Japanese grammar?


Sadly,
Raphael

P.S.: Konna hontou ni kanashikute yo! tsutichatte hanshichatte kudasai! boku netai! Sa, kitsui kitsui! Naze ... konna chenshii desu ka?

[Javizy]

It's clear, from this thread, that you people's Japanese are like 30% of my Chinese: you know all the grammar rules, but you can't explain any of them, except in very vague terms.

LOL

The irony - a Londoner blasting an Ethnic Chinese for not knowing the Chinese language!! It would be worth a Monty Python sketch if it wasn't so rude.

Kanji != hanzi.

Chinese

Can you stop mentioning this please?

P.S.: Konna hontou ni kanashikute yo! tsutichatte hanshichatte kudasai! boku netai! Sa, kitsui kitsui! Naze ... konna chenshii desu ka?

分からん

[j0hn]

arixion7914,

Sorry, but having lived and studied the Japanese in Tokyo for 2 years, I can say that what you believe to be colloquial Japanese is mostly just-plain-wrong Japanese, or unusual usage.

It's not too great to be lecturing people about their level of Japanese when you can't correctly conjugate the verb "tsukuru". ("tsuketai" is a form of "tsukeru").

In my language class there were people from Europe, Taiwan, Korea and America. Generally speaking the Korean students found it easiest to learn the language (as the grammar is very similar to Korean), but Taiwanese (albeit knowing many of the characters) didn't really have much of an advantage over anyone else. So I'm confused as to why you assume your Chinese skills really contribute to your Japanese proficiency.

You can criticise people studying for JLPT, but I know a wide spectrum of Japanese studiers, and there's generally two types:
1) People who study formally (maybe not to pass an exam, but they generally study to something like JLPT spec)
2) People who learn bits and pieces and claim to be be masters of conversation

The 2nd are the type that can use phrases like "ryouri wo tsuketai" without knowing (and sometimes not caring) that it is gibberish. The first may start off saying "ryouri wo tsukuritai desu", but before long they'll have the grounding they need to switch to less formal speech when the situation calls for it. Just as with many languages, you need a foundation of a large range of grammar before you try and mix it up with colloquialism.

Also, be careful before you criticise someone for using different romanisation of Japanese text. These are the people who probably studied from the beginning with kana and kanji and are not used to expressing Japanese using roman characters. This kind of mistake alone is definitely not a sign of non-proficient Japanese.

It seems like you have an alright level of Japanese and are doing well, but you do make a lot of mistakes and style matters aside, it can be very difficult to understand what you're saying. It might do you good to review basic verb conjugation stuff, and keep a sense of humility about the whole thing - after all, Japanese is a language that grows with you over years, and anyone who says they've "mastered" it...well, I've never heard a "type 1" say that, only type 2s.[/b]