Kanji Radical Numbering

[thegooseking]

みなさん、こんにちは、

I know radicals are an important way of learning kanji. For instance, I remember how to write 語 (language) because it's the radical 言 (speech) plus the radicals 五 + 口 (five + mouth), indicating that the kanji is (usually) pronounced 'go', just like the Japanese for 'five'. (Let's not complicate this by noting that the kanji originated in China, where 語 and 五 are pronounced differently )

I was looking up や on beta.jisho.org to try to answer izzyさん's question (though unfortunately I couldn't find anything useful) and I happened to notice in the sidebar that 八 is described as "eight, eight radical (no. 12)".

What does this "no. 12" mean? Is there a standard ordering for radicals? And what benefit does this ordering have - is it anything I could use to help with learning?

よろしくおねがいします、
小狼

[mmmason8967]

I don't know what the "no 12" means, although it does appear to be some kind of numbering system.

I've got a pair of Japanese dictionaries that are used in Japanese elementary schools. One's the kind where you look up a word and it gives you definition, the other is a kanji dictionary. Despite being aimed at young children, they're around 1,200 pages each (small print, too) so they're going to satisfy my needs for a good long while.

Anyway, looking at the kanji dictionary, there does appear to be an ordering for radicals. 八 is the fourteenth, though. So close to 12, but not close enough to explain it satisfactorily.

If you're interested in kanji, the kind of kanji dictionary I've got might be useful. It focusses your attention a lot more than using web tools does, and it's an entirely Japanese environment with no English whatsoever, which is a bit intimidating at first but soon becomes quite comfortable.

マイケル

[thegooseking]

マイケルさん、

Thanks for the advice.

I have an app on my phone called Kanji Recognizer, which I mainly use for the quiz mode, which tests your kanji writing, but can be used just to write a kanji on the screen and look it up. It also says 八 is radical no. 12, but further down, it notes that 12 is the Classical radical number, which is a bit more of a clue for me to work on.

For a start, it seems like I might be using the word 'radical' wrong? Apparently the radical (部首／ぶしゅ in Japanese) is only the main component of the kanji, not each component. So in 語 the radical is 言, while 五 and 口 are other components, but not, strictly speaking, radicals. On the other hand, I have found some statements indicating that that's the "traditional" meaning of the word, while the way I've been using it is the "new" meaning.

Anyway, apparently there are 214 classical radicals, which come from the Chinese Kangxi radicals, so-called because were collected in a Kangxi Dictionary in 1716. I suppose the number just reflects the order in which they appeared in that book, which might not be a very useful way of learning the radicals themselves, but, it appears, has been adopted as the standard for ordering kanji in dictionaries and such.

The Kangxi list doesn't actually count 五 as a radical - perhaps because it never appeared in the 'main' position of a kanji, or perhaps because it's "composed" of 一 and 二 and two vertical lines (i.e. 1 + 2 + 2 = 5) - but it does appear in a small list of "new radicals".

小狼

[mmmason8967]

The dictionary I use has strictly one, and only one, 部首 per character, so it uses the "new" meaning of 部首.

The dictionary is ordered by 部首 and stroke count. So the one-stroke 部首 come first, then the two stoke, ones, then three three stroke ones, and so on. Within each 部首 the kanji are ordered by the number of strokes excluding the 部首. So 語 appears as 言の部＋７画 and 五 appears as 二の部＋２画; this is quite handy when you run into things like 玉, which is a four-stroke kanji and therefore a four-stroke 部首, even though one of the strokes disappears when it's used as a 部首--like, for example, in 玩 or 現 or (and this one is a real gem) 王. Yes, 王 appears as 玉の部＋０画. I certainly never saw that one coming...

Anyway, it seems plausible that 部首 ordering might be derived from the classical ordering, since they're done by stroke count and then by what appears to be a completely random ordering within each stroke-count group.

マイケル

[Murius]

I have the "new Nelson" dictionary which gives the 214 "historical radicals", so it seems there are many ways to designate them. They are indeed ordered by stroke count. However there are more than 214 since there are alternatives (3 ways to write n°12 etc.)

I rarely even touch the nelson anymore, however my reading life revolves around zkanji and radical number never mattered for me. What does is the stroke count so I can get the radical fast or if I can't determine a radical for the kanji (it happens often) so that I can quickly add-up radicals for a search by stroke count (and there the only book I use, KANJI 2200 - ISBN 9784385140742, is invaluable for the pages 478-485, which list 2200 kanji by stroke order).

Also just download zkanji, it boasts 3 radical tables; the "base" with 254 radicals, the classical (214) and classical 2 (it should have been labeled "weird", you'll see, though it helped at times).

Hope that helps!

[community.japanese]

小狼さん、 マイケルさん、 Muriusさん、
こんにちは。
I am sorry I am not sure the No12 小狼さん mentioned.
However, all of you have been exchanging opinions and information.
That is good.

Yuki　由紀
Team JapanesePod101.com

[ninjalin888]

こんにちは皆さん。

I've not really looked at learning radicals individually so I'm probably a bit useless in giving advice.
But I did find this website for radicals. http://www.yellowbridge.com/chinese/radicals.php
I know it is for the Chinese language, but since Kanji originated from China (sorry for brining it up ) maybe you might be able to find something?)

Besides that, the radical numbering does seem to be standard for the Kangzi dictionary. But the placements of each radical within the stroke bracket is arbitrary and just a simplified (and now standard) version of the Shuowen Jiezi dictionary. I guess the only thing that can be rationalise (minutely) is the positions of radicals that use the same stroke pattern within the stroke count group.

For example these characters below all have two downward strokes and therefore grouped together.
9: 人
10: 儿
11: 入
12: 八

The 五 was originally a radical (部首) back in the 2nd century in China when there were 540 radicals, but just dropped over time.

I'd say not to worry about the numbering.

[community.japanese]

ninjalin888 san,
konnichiwa.
Thank you for sharing the information.
That is interesting.

Yuki　由紀
Team JapanesePod101.com