The 'r' syllables

[DavidKinkopf]

I have asked quite a few question about the 'r' syllables now, and I like to get as much information as possible.

Thing is, I'm never really sure on how to pronounce the 'r' syllables.
I've heard things from, 'every' 'r' is pronounced as 'l', like one can often hear when single syllables are spoken, to 'it's something between an 'r' sound and an 'l' sound.

Now that I have listened very closely to several of the courses I dare saying that I have heard anything from 'r' to 'l' and even sometimes a 't', but that could really just be me.

ありがとう would be an example where I often hear the 'r' pronounced as 'r'
久しぶり would be an exotic example where I sometimes hear the 'r' pronounced as 't' or 'd'

I am perfectly aware that pronounciation questionｓ are difficult to discuss in writing. But perhaps someone could give me an advice. Perhaps a rule of thumb or perhaps a pronounciation with which I would be on the save side.

ありがとうございます

[taikutsu]

Advice: Listen to Japanese. Imitate Japanese sounds. Repeat.

That's the only thing that's going to help you with this. Sorry.

[Javizy]

Advice: Listen to Japanese. Imitate Japanese sounds. Repeat.

That's the only thing that's going to help you with this. Sorry.

Not exactly true. Phonology is a science and pronunciation can be learnt much like grammar; you begin by learning the well-defined mechanics of individual phonemes and then, through exposure and practice, perfect wider elements like intonation, pitch accent and general fluidity. It's certainly possible to learn through simply listening and shadowing, but the many fluent gaijin with terrible accents are enough to show that's it's an unreliable approach and, given the time it can take, a massive gamble.

Learning how your tongue and lips should be positioned and practising while listening to natives doesn't take very long and quickly improves your awareness, which makes your exposure more effective, and also helps you avoid fossilised errors. Another approach is to work with a helpful native who can direct you. It's probably a good idea to get a second opinion when you can, since learner's ears aren't the most reliable. I also think learners should familiarise themselves with the various pitch accent patterns as early as possible, since overlooking this can be very difficult to correct later on.

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any comprehensive resource on Japanese pronunciation. I relied a lot on lessons from a friend (who happens to be a native linguist) and critiques from native friends. Reading the Wiki page may be useful, since I think it mentions things like how し is pronounced differently to an English 'sh'. There's some useful ら行 discussion in this thread, although there is a better one I can't seem to find. There's a good one about ん on that board somewhere too. The book Shadowing is very good too (check the explanation on the site for info on the technique).

[julian5527]

Hi, I've been wondering the same thing. In one podcast in particular in the Beginning series where Natsuko spells all the numbers from 1 to 10, she says ROKU for 6 but then when she pronounces each syllable by itself she says LO-KU.

I also heard this recording of an old children's song "KISHA POPPO" and at the very end the song goes "のぼり　ゆく" yet the singer pronounces it NOBOLI YUKU.

Is this like a regional thing or is it generalized? Is there a rule to this?

Thanks!

[Javizy]

It's called not being used to Japanese They're not saying LA, DA or anything other than ら. As your listening and pronunciation improves, you'll naturally be able to tell yourself, so don't sweat it.

[Psy]

The term you're after is alveolar flap, which involves tapping the tongue on the roof of your mouth as you would with an L, but only leaving it there briefly. Phonetically speaking this isn't too far away from letters like D, T, L or R, and as a consequence it can be easy to either misinterpret or, in the case of native speakers, to blend more towards one sound or the next. I suppose you could liken it to how red can bleed into orange but still be considered red. At any rate, that might be why some people argue so intently about natives pronouncing it as an L or an R....

... but it isn't. It's a ラ. The more you practice articulating it, the more obvious it will become to your ear.