Can Iphone/Ipod touch serve a a real japanese dictionary?

[Ivo]

Hello,
Let me preface is with the following: I am a serious Japanese learner (have done 3 years of college education, spent a few summers in Japan). I am soon going to do field research for a year in Tokyo (will mainly research Japanese govern. documents + newspaper). I now am looking for a tool that would help me and I hope you can advice me how to proceed (especially those who are Ipod touch/Iphone users).

I've noticed that recently dictionary applications for Ipod/Iphone seem to be of good quality and can qualify as full fledged Japanese dictionaries. E.g. there is Eijiro, Jim Breen's Edict with EdPPocket, Japanese, Wisdom etc. and of course apps that are completely free of charge such as Kotoba.

Now would it be really worth buying an Ipod touch simply to use it as Japanese dictionary only?
I have to following worries with Ipod and would like to hear your input on it:

1. Handwritten kanji input on Ipod an good?
I know that Iphone/Ipod touch uses a Chinese input system. Is there a Japanese version? If not, does it mean that the system doesn't recognize some of the Japanese characters which differ from Japanese? (in fact there are quite many).

2. Handwritten kanji input on Ipod/Iphone and thick fingers:
Is it easy to input/draw kanji on Iphones? Does the input system recognize it well or is it necessary, especially with more complicated kanji to write a kanji several times before Iphone gets it right? Here I am worried that while inputing kanji (drawing) into Iphone is possible it might not be very precise (especially given the small box into which one needs to draw a kanji) and thus be eventually not very efficient.
I know that an alternative to this is a PDA/ DS with a stylus and I wish to know how does Iphone fare in comparsion to these. In short, is it possible to work with Iphones when doing translation or reading e.g. a Japanese book in an efficient way?
I am planning on using my Iphone as a dictionary while reading old japanese newspaper etc.

3. How easy or difficult is it to navigate between two applications on Iphone (e..g two different Japanese dictionaries). Obviously I don't have an Iphone and can't imagine that it's that simple.

3. Last but not least: what software would you recommend to get, which dictionary? (I am looking for something that would have lot's of examples, as well as explanations of words in English + look up both in hiragana, katakana, kanji and English.


Is sum, would you recommend me getting an Iphone/Ipod touch for the purposes of living and researching in Japan?

I will appreciate all your help.
Thank you in advance!!!!!!!!!

btw. I don't mind bying dictionaries online for 20$ or 30$ for Ipod as long as it's a good dictionary.

[Belton]

1. Handwritten kanji input on Ipod an good?
I know that Iphone/Ipod touch uses a Chinese input system. Is there a Japanese version? If not, does it mean that the system doesn't recognize some of the Japanese characters which differ from Japanese? (in fact there are quite many).

That is the case. There is no Japanese handwriting input. As it's for Japanese people to input they use an input manager to convert kana to kanji just like on a desktop device.
The Chinese traditional system seems to be missing Japanese kanji (気、畑　for instance.) The writing changes might not be too big an issue if you are dealing with pre-war documents, although I suspect native Japanese kanji would still be an issue.

2. Handwritten kanji input on ipod/iphone and thick fingers:
Is it easy to input/draw kanji on iphones? Does the input system recognize it well or is it necessary, especially with more complicated kanji to write a kanji several times before Iphone gets it right? Here I am worried that while inputing kanji (drawing) into Iphone is possible it might not be very precise (especially given the small box into which one needs to draw a kanji) and thus be eventually not very efficient.

Everyone's mileage is different. For me I dislike the fingerpainting input and would prefer a stylus to input. I don't find it very precise. However the system does seem to be able to interpret the messiest of kanji scrawls.
I suggest you go to an Apple store and play with one if you can.
The styli for iPhone I've tried aren't much improvement on your fingers.

I don't bother with the "handwriting" input and use multi-radical to search unknown kanji.

3. How easy or difficult is it to navigate between two applications on Iphone (e..g two different Japanese dictionaries). Obviously I don't have an Iphone and can't imagine that it's that simple.

Fairly impossible.
All you have is copy and paste *if* your dictionary supports it. (I have a version of eijiro that doesn't for instance) OS4 promises multi-tasking but developers would also have to make use of it, and so far Apple seems very reluctant to let 3rd party apps talk to each other.
I even find email and note-taking a bit too laborious on an iPod really. It's good for reference not great at producing things.

3. Last but not least: what software would you recommend to get, which dictionary? (I am looking for something that would have lot's of examples, as well as explanations of words in English + look up both in hiragana, katakana, kanji and English.

Hard to say for your intended use.
The big divide is Edict (JMDict) based and everything else. Those professionaly edited (usually a copy of a print dictionary) and the free resources which are more list-like. Those for basic and Intermediate 2L learners and those for native Japanese.
You might like to search for 辞典 on the App store in iTunes, which should throw up most of the Japanese native dictionaries. Some are very expensive (£50 to £80, $75+ ?).
I like Jim Breen's KKLD but I doubt it will be up to the task you have.
Kotoba! has the full JMDict and KANJIDIC data and is free. You might find it's multiradical search quicker than finger input. Other dictionaries tend to use the same data so the main difference will be whether you prefer their interface or price.
With Internet connectivity (WiFi or 3G) you do have access to any dictionary resource on the web if you want.

If you are happy with Edict etc. the iPod/iphone is the way to go I'd say, although for research I think you'd be better off with dictionaries on your laptop. For portability the iPod is the way to go. For connectivity on the move I'd say iPhone but wonder about the extra cost compared to an iPod, especially if you only want data connectivity.
If you are very comfortable working in Japanese you might want to look at a dedicated electronic dictionary with stylus support (Canon, Seiko etc). As you may know these can be quite expensive.

[Javizy]

2. Handwritten kanji input on Ipod/Iphone and thick fingers:
Is it easy to input/draw kanji on Iphones? Does the input system recognize it well or is it necessary, especially with more complicated kanji to write a kanji several times before Iphone gets it right?

The fact that it only supports Chinese handwriting input means that some of the Japanese stroke orders won't be recognised, and native kanji aren't included. It can be quite good at recognising sloppily written characters though (my fingers are far from slender). I think typing words you know is much more efficient in any case, e.g. type きれい to get 綺. If it happens to be a complicated character you don't know, then there's a good chance you'll write it incorrectly, so I think the radical search would be a better option.

3. How easy or difficult is it to navigate between two applications on Iphone (e..g two different Japanese dictionaries). Obviously I don't have an Iphone and can't imagine that it's that simple.

As Belton said, OS4 is going to bring in multitasking. You'll be able to bring up the dock (the icons at the bottom) at any time, so as long as your dictionaries are on there, you can flick between them easily enough. The dock would also support pages, so you don't need to worry about filling it up.

3. Last but not least: what software would you recommend to get, which dictionary? (I am looking for something that would have lot's of examples, as well as explanations of words in English + look up both in hiragana, katakana, kanji and English.

Do you mean English synonyms? I don't think I've ever seen a dictionary with explanations in English. I get by with 'Japanese', which is a pretty good EDICT implementation. I get the feeling J-E results might fall short for you though. I'm guessing you'll be looking up a lot of rarer words that are unlikely to have example sentences. The translations can be pretty inept, and I don't understand these words until I see the J-J definition on goo.

I'd recommend getting used to a J-J dictionary anyway. I have both sets of definitions on my flashcards, and the English ones often really poorly convey the meaning expressed in the Japanese ones. iEijirou can be outright misleading if you're not careful. I always use my J-E because of the way I make my flashcards, but I'd use it as a backup otherwise. One of the big J-J ones in the app store is 大辞典.

Check out some of the threads here for more discussions about dictionaries http://forum.koohii.com/search.php?search_id=2073584771

[Ivo]

BELTON, FIRST OF ALL THANK YOU FOR YOUR REPLY AND FOR TAKING YOUR TIME WITH THIS. I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR INPUT.
Now allow me a few follow-ups.

That is the case. There is no Japanese handwriting input. As it's for Japanese people to input they use an input manager to convert kana to kanji just like on a desktop device.
The Chinese traditional system seems to be missing Japanese kanji (気、畑　for instance.) The writing changes might not be too big an issue if you are dealing with pre-war documents, although I suspect native Japanese kanji would still be an issue.

That is a serious deficiency in my opinion. I want to use an Ipod touch (not Iphone..too expensive and I would not use it as a phone) not only as a research tool but also as something that will help me in a daily life in Japan - I should have said that before, sorry.
I should actually specify what my plan is: most of the time I will be carrying around my laptop (MacBook Pro) when doing research. So I should say that the Ipod touch would be used only as a supporting device.
Now if you say that the Chinese traditional system has a problem with Japanese characters, this will also be true for MacBook Pro (OS X 10.6) because the system uses the same interface. I am pretty disappointed with this. I've just decided to make a switch from Windows to Macs (i.e. the MacBook has not year arrived, I've ordered it) only to discover that there Japanese language support SUCKS.Compared to Windows which has e.g. a useful IME Pad Mac seems not to directly support Japanese in this way.

Everyone's mileage is different. For me I dislike the fingerpainting input and would prefer a stylus to input. I don't find it very precise. However the system does seem to be able to interpret the messiest of kanji scrawls.
I suggest you go to an Apple store and play with one if you can.
The styli for iPhone I've tried aren't much improvement on your fingers.

Yeah I'll have to try this, probably there's no other way how to know. The truth is that I have a PDA (Ipaq 4700) with a stylus and Eijiro, Edict etc. running on it. It's the same set-up that Japanese Language Tools uses - i.e. a perfect little gadget with a great recognition software because the OS system is Japanese. Now the problem is that my Ipaq broke (already for the second time) and I would have to pay another 100$ to get it fixed and god knows how long or if it would last. In comparsion a new Ipod Touch seemed to me a bit more sturdy and of course more mobile.
That said I do love the stylus.

3. How easy or difficult is it to navigate between two applications on Iphone (e..g two different Japanese dictionaries). Obviously I don't have an Iphone and can't imagine that it's that simple.

Fairly impossible.
All you have is copy and paste *if* your dictionary supports it. (I have a version of eijiro that doesn't for instance) OS4 promises multi-tasking but developers would also have to make use of it, and so far Apple seems very reluctant to let 3rd party apps talk to each other.
I even find email and note-taking a bit too laborious on an iPod really. It's good for reference not great at producing things.
[/quote]

argh, that is a pain. So if I find a word in one dictionary on Ipod (say in Wisdom) and want to check what Eijiro would have to say about it I'd be having hard time, right?

If you are happy with Edict etc. the iPod/iphone is the way to go I'd say, although for research I think you'd be better off with dictionaries on your laptop. For portability the iPod is the way to go. For connectivity on the move I'd say iPhone but wonder about the extra cost compared to an iPod, especially if you only want data connectivity.
If you are very comfortable working in Japanese you might want to look at a dedicated electronic dictionary with stylus support (Canon, Seiko etc). As you may know these can be quite expensive.

I SEE. Well my reasoning is at this point the following: I will use my laptop as the main research tool. I am comfortable working in Japanese so I would not have so many problems working with a dedicated dictionary but as you say I find the price rather steep and I find that an Ipod could be in this sense also used for other purposes - calendar, web browsing etc. So say If I was to get an Ipod as a portable mobile tool to get by in Japan in a daily life, to use it once in a while during my research if don't happen to have my computer nearby at that moment, Ipod would probably do, right?
i.e. if I installed Kotoba, Wisdom and Eijiro on it.

[Ivo]

Javizy, thank you for your response as well. Allow me to ask a few questions related to this.

The fact that it only supports Chinese handwriting input means that some of the Japanese stroke orders won't be recognised, and native kanji aren't included. It can be quite good at recognising sloppily written characters though (my fingers are far from slender). I think typing words you know is much more efficient in any case, e.g. type きれい to get 綺. If it happens to be a complicated character you don't know, then there's a good chance you'll write it incorrectly, so I think the radical search would be a better option.

There probably is not a way for me to know before i try myself but if you were to compare this to a denshi jisho or a PDA with a stylus (or Nintento DS) how would Ipod touch do in your opinion when it comes to handwritten input?

As Belton said, OS4 is going to bring in multitasking. You'll be able to bring up the dock (the icons at the bottom) at any time, so as long as your dictionaries are on there, you can flick between them easily enough. The dock would also support pages, so you don't need to worry about filling it up.

Because I have not yet looked at what's being sold with Ipod I assume that the current version doesn't support multitasking yet. Do you know when OS4 will be out?

3. Last but not least: what software would you recommend to get, which dictionary? (I am looking for something that would have lot's of examples, as well as explanations of words in English + look up both in hiragana, katakana, kanji and English.

Do you mean English synonyms? I don't think I've ever seen a dictionary with explanations in English. I get by with 'Japanese', which is a pretty good EDICT implementation. I get the feeling J-E results might fall short for you though. I'm guessing you'll be looking up a lot of rarer words that are unlikely to have example sentences. The translations can be pretty inept, and I don't understand these words until I see the J-J definition on goo.
[/quote]

Sorry, I meant of course Japanese explanations. But having Japanese sentences with English translations would be probably ideal...i.e. something like one has on http://eow.alc.co.jp/.

Anyhow at this point, as I indicated above, I am thinking of getting the Ipod Touch more as a tool for daily life in Japan and as a replacement for my broken Ipaq 4700 PDA with Eijiro and Edict on it.

[Javizy]

There probably is not a way for me to know before i try myself but if you were to compare this to a denshi jisho or a PDA with a stylus (or Nintento DS) how would Ipod touch do in your opinion when it comes to handwritten input?

It's the only character recognition software I've ever used actually. Even when it works well, I find it too much of a pain to use, since typing is so much easier, so I'm probably not the best person to ask anyway.

It's designed to be used with your finger, which isn't an ideal input device for kanji, so I'm guessing it's always going to fall short of the alternatives. The pogo stylus improves accuracy, but it's not as responsive as I'd like.

Because I have not yet looked at what's being sold with Ipod I assume that the current version doesn't support multitasking yet. Do you know when OS4 will be out?

You can do multitasking if you jailbreak, but Apple's implementation looks a lot more effective. I've heard that it's coming out in September. The new iPod Touch usually comes out around that time, with the iPhone around June-July.

Sorry, I meant of course Japanese explanations. But having Japanese sentences with English translations would be probably ideal...i.e. something like one has on http://eow.alc.co.jp/.

iEijirou is actually the same dictionary used on alc. I find it best for E-J, since you can look up phrases. The J-E comes out with some pretty inaccurate results sometimes though (I had to correct some ridiculous English usage from my girlfriend before she switched to a better J-E).

Japanese (the dictionary) has example sentences for a lot of words. I believe it uses the Tanaka corpus, which you'll see on Jim Breen. There's a chance kotoba uses it as well, so I'd check that out first.

Anyhow at this point, as I indicated above, I am thinking of getting the Ipod Touch more as a tool for daily life in Japan and as a replacement for my broken Ipaq 4700 PDA with Eijiro and Edict on it.

I don't think you'll regret it. There are a ton of features that make it well worth the money even without a dictionary. I'd try holding out for the new model if you're not leaving in the summer though. I'm thinking of upgrading if there's a decent performance increase. I can't run the n64 emulator on my ole 2nd G.

[Ivo]

It's the only character recognition software I've ever used actually. Even when it works well, I find it too much of a pain to use, since typing is so much easier, so I'm probably not the best person to ask anyway.

yeah I also like to type - actually type anytime I can. The problem being that thus far I know probably 1200 kanji and there are still so many I don't know their reading for + once in a while you forget those that you already knew:) (of course happens everyday). So if I can't type, I prefer writing down kanji to other forms of looking for kanji meaning (whether by radicals, stroke number etc.). It's not that I wouldn't be able to use this type of method but it takes longer than looking up kanji by writing them down.

It's designed to be used with your finger, which isn't an ideal input device for kanji, so I'm guessing it's always going to fall short of the alternatives. The pogo stylus improves accuracy, but it's not as responsive as I'd like.

you mean it's more precise than a finger but still not precise enough?

You can do multitasking if you jailbreak, but Apple's implementation looks a lot more effective. I've heard that it's coming out in September. The new iPod Touch usually comes out around that time, with the iPhone around June-July.

I am sorry I don't understand what you mean by Apple's implementation looking better? Why not jailbreak if you can multitask then?
Unfortunately I can't wait until the release of new Ipod for I am leaving to Japan in June already.

thank you for your comments again.

[Belton]

Now if you say that the Chinese traditional system has a problem with Japanese characters, this will also be true for MacBook Pro (OS X 10.6) because the system uses the same interface. I am pretty disappointed with this. I've just decided to make a switch from Windows to Macs (i.e. the MacBook has not year arrived, I've ordered it) only to discover that there Japanese language support SUCKS.Compared to Windows which has e.g. a useful IME Pad Mac seems not to directly support Japanese in this way.

I think the Japanese support is quite good on the Mac. It is geared towards the Japanese though rather than students and they will type their input rather than write it. Lots of great fonts, no messing about installing extras, 3 excellent dictionaries.

Well you still have options on a MacBook. You can also run windows, as a separate system or in emulation which I find is more useful so I can jump back and forth.

For top class kanji recognition and handwriting input check out MyScript with a Japanese dictionary.
http://www.visionobjects.com/
also for Linux, and Windows
or possibly cheaper and a bit more mac specific but still the same engine. Quickscript
http://www.axiotron.com/index.php?id=quickscript
It is probably best on a modBook but who has the money? But It's fine for me with a tablet and also possible using a trackpad or mouse for single or shorter entries.
It gets even more accurate if you train it to your own handwriting.

argh, that is a pain. So if I find a word in one dictionary on Ipod (say in Wisdom) and want to check what Eijiro would have to say about it I'd be having hard time, right?

Yes and no. Until multitasking is officially supported (I haven't jailbroken) you would copy what you want to cross reference, swap to the finder, launch your other dictionary and paste in your reference to do a search. Not ideal but doable. Apps launch and search very quickly.
It really needs something like JEDict which can load and search multiple dictionary files. (Actually there's a niche for a programmer, something that reads Edict and Eijiro etc.)

So say If I was to get an Ipod as a portable mobile tool to get by in Japan in a daily life, to use it once in a while during my research if don't happen to have my computer nearby at that moment, Ipod would probably do, right?
i.e. if I installed Kotoba, Wisdom and Eijiro on it.

It's the way I'd go. It's a wonderfully versatile device. I've used PDA's, Nintendo, MacBook and iPod and while MacBook is my number one choice, for portability and versatility the iPod wins hands down. It's also extendable, quickly and easily, there are new apps and dictionaries appearing reasonably regularly. I think the most promising trend is the publishers of paper dictionaries making electronic editions for iPhone OS.
I'd advise you to go with the mid range model rather than the cheapest one, if only for the better and faster chips which might make things easier when apps and the system upgrades.
I'd also advise you to give Eijiro Touch a miss and check out the other two or three apps that use Eijiro

To pick up on some of the comments to Javizy.
In terms of handwriting input, After MyScript, DS is probably the best I've used, PADict on Palm maybe the most unforgiving. The Ipod is somewhere in between. If it had stylus precision it'd probably be great, also if 3rd party developers could jump in, a Japanese version could probably be built too. But these are mere wishes.

Japanese and English explanations and examples.
Check out this online dictionary. ( a bit off topic but could be accessed through Safari and WiFi)
www.chuta.jp

[Javizy]

you mean it's more precise than a finger but still not precise enough?

You have to push down slightly harder then with your finger (you can practically brush the screen with that). I think it's worth investing in if you plan on using character recognition a lot. You'll also find it handy in winter or if you take a trip up north, since you can't use your iPod with gloves on

I am sorry I don't understand what you mean by Apple's implementation looking better? Why not jailbreak if you can multitask then?
Unfortunately I can't wait until the release of new Ipod for I am leaving to Japan in June already.

I jailbroke a couple of months ago so I could use AnkiMini, and I recommend doing it if you don't have any qualms about it. As far as I'm aware it's practically impossible to do any damage, and since you can restore with iTunes, it doesn't void your warranty either. I certainly didn't have any problems, but I'd recommend doing a bit of research yourself since it's all hearsay.

After jailbreaking you download apps called Backgrounder and Kirikae. Kirikae has a task manager style interface you can bring up at any time by double-tapping the home button. It tells you what apps are running and allows you to switch between them, close them, and get back to the home screen to open others (there's a favourites tab to make opening certain apps more convenient).

You'll definitely want the higher spec model if you plan on using this a lot. OS4 multitasking will only be supported on those ones as well. All I meant by my previous comment was that Apple's version looks like it will be easier to use than Kirikae, but that's to be expected since it's their OS after all.

[Belton]

You'll also find it handy in winter or if you take a trip up north, since you can't use your iPod with gloves on

or you could just find a sausage....

[Ivo]

Belton, again thank you for your responses. Very helpful.
Allow me ask a few follow-up questions:

I think the Japanese support is quite good on the Mac. It is geared towards the Japanese though rather than students and they will type their input rather than write it. Lots of great fonts, no messing about installing extras, 3 excellent dictionaries.

How good are they? I've heard about them but until my MBP gets here I can't test them out.

Well you still have options on a MacBook. You can also run windows, as a separate system or in emulation which I find is more useful so I can jump back and forth.

I've done some research on this too. One could use bootcamp (but that doesn't seem to be as effective as you need to decide at the start-up which system you want to go with..i.e. swift switching is impossible) or one can run Parallels or some other virtual server that allows Windows being opened in a separate window while working in OS. Now I've got a question about this: MS Windows IME Pad is really good for kanji handwritten recognition but it's part of the Windows OS system - i.e. in Japanese keyboard - not a specific application. So If I was to be able to use it simultaneously with OS X I would have to have the option to really switch easily between the two operating systems, not just OS X and a program that runs under Windows. Is this possible? And if it is, what do you need to install all this? (I assume I'd have to buy Parallels and Windows OS?)

For top class kanji recognition and handwriting input check out MyScript with a Japanese dictionary.
http://www.visionobjects.com/

Belton could you please describe a bit more how this works? I looked at their web but could not figure that out. It seems that the software translates anything written - so if I was to write an kanji it'd do that as well. But thinking about it twice I am not sure how useful that is (or how effectively you can use it with a dictionary). Under Windows IME Pad you start scribbling down the kanji you want and after a few strokes you are already given a list of options with various kanji, changes with each stroke...sometimes you don't need to even finish the kanji. This is extremely effective in my opinion. I don't know how MyScript would beat this? I.e. what I am describing here works similary to this web interface: http://kanji.sljfaq.org/draw.html
The difference being that in Windows OS it's part of the system (you don't need internet access and it's way more less cumbersome because you don't need to paste and copy anything).

Yes and no. Until multitasking is officially supported (I haven't jailbroken) you would copy what you want to cross reference, swap to the finder, launch your other dictionary and paste in your reference to do a search. Not ideal but doable. Apps launch and search very quickly.

I have to admit that it's doable but really this is something I'd like to avoid..eventually looking up stuff in dictionaries is also about speed and this solution is a bit too cumbersome. AS you say doable but far from ideal.

It really needs something like JEDict which can load and search multiple dictionary files. (Actually there's a niche for a programmer, something that reads Edict and Eijiro etc.)

Well If I am not wrong, there's an application that allows all the Jim Breen's dictionaries and Eijiro to be searched at the same time:
http://itunes.apple.com/app/ebpocket-pr ... 39933?mt=8
It costs only 5$. I have not yet tried it so I can't say how user-friendly the interface is. What do you think of this option?

So say If I was to get an Ipod as a portable mobile tool to get by in Japan in a daily life, to use it once in a while during my research if don't happen to have my computer nearby at that moment, Ipod would probably do, right?
i.e. if I installed Kotoba, Wisdom and Eijiro on it.

It's the way I'd go. It's a wonderfully versatile device. I've used PDA's, Nintendo, MacBook and iPod and while MacBook is my number one choice, for portability and versatility the iPod wins hands down. It's also extendable, quickly and easily, there are new apps and dictionaries appearing reasonably regularly. I think the most promising trend is the publishers of paper dictionaries making electronic editions for iPhone OS. [/quote]

great this is probably something I wanted to hear. I opened this thread for I wanted to know whether it was reasonable for me to ditch my broken PDA4700 which had Eijiro and the whole set of Breen's dictionaries on it and go for Ipod Touch.

I'd advise you to go with the mid range model rather than the cheapest one, if only for the better and faster chips which might make things easier when apps and the system upgrades.

I was considering these two models:
http://www.apple.com/ipodtouch/specs.html
http://www.apple.com/ipodtouch/specs-8.html

What do you think?

In terms of handwriting input, After MyScript, DS is probably the best I've used, PADict on Palm maybe the most unforgiving. The Ipod is somewhere in between.

That is interesting. For mye the best handwriting input was the Ipaq4700 with Japanese WM OS system on it. I.e. a system produced for Japanese users with integratred handwritten recognition - using a stylus. Absolutely no complains, could find any kanji very fast. Basically my PDA is very similar to what this guy is selling:
http://www.japaneselanguagetools.com/
The difference is that I set it up myself.

Japanese and English explanations and examples.
Check out this online dictionary. ( a bit off topic but could be accessed through Safari and WiFi)
www.chuta.jp

thanks I will.

[Ivo]

Javizy, thank you again for the useful tips!!!

You have to push down slightly harder then with your finger (you can practically brush the screen with that). I think it's worth investing in if you plan on using character recognition a lot. You'll also find it handy in winter or if you take a trip up north, since you can't use your iPod with gloves on"

that's right:_),.
But really I looked up the stylus for Ipod Touch and it's only a few dollars so I might give it a try.

I jailbroke a couple of months ago so I could use AnkiMini, and I recommend doing it if you don't have any qualms about it. As far as I'm aware it's practically impossible to do any damage, and since you can restore with iTunes, it doesn't void your warranty either. I certainly didn't have any problems, but I'd recommend doing a bit of research yourself since it's all hearsay.

Well I have TOTALLY NO QUALMS ABOUT THIS WHATSOEVER. Will have to do research do as to how to go about jailbreaking the thing. Why does Apple not jailbreak it in the first place if it makes a better device altogether? As you can tell i am a total novice to Ipod/Iphones so this might be a weird question but seems to me that it has to do something with business rather than user experience. This is something which I don't like about Apple in general: they are a bit too pushy for my consumer taste.
Back to the issue of jailbreaking: did you do it yourself?
Also what is AnkiMini?

After jailbreaking you download apps called Backgrounder and Kirikae. Kirikae has a task manager style interface you can bring up at any time by double-tapping the home button. It tells you what apps are running and allows you to switch between them, close them, and get back to the home screen to open others (there's a favourites tab to make opening certain apps more convenient).

Cool this means that running two different dictionaries and switching between them would not be such a hassle anymore? Ideally I could copy and paste certain words and carry them from one to the other with very little extra clicking?

You'll definitely want the higher spec model if you plan on using this a lot. OS4 multitasking will only be supported on those ones as well. All I meant by my previous comment was that Apple's version looks like it will be easier to use than Kirikae, but that's to be expected since it's their OS after all.

I've already asked Belton about this, would the 3rd generation 32GB Ipod Touch suffice? Currently fro 299$ from Apple store. Also you are speaking about OS4 coming out and allowing multitasking. So you do speculate that September this year might be the time for the release? Is it easy then to update OS systems in iphones/ipods?

Thanks again for all the help.

[Javizy]

Well I have TOTALLY NO QUALMS ABOUT THIS WHATSOEVER. Will have to do research do as to how to go about jailbreaking the thing. Why does Apple not jailbreak it in the first place if it makes a better device altogether? As you can tell i am a total novice to Ipod/Iphones so this might be a weird question but seems to me that it has to do something with business rather than user experience. This is something which I don't like about Apple in general: they are a bit too pushy for my consumer taste.
Back to the issue of jailbreaking: did you do it yourself?
Also what is AnkiMini?

It's 100% about being limited to the App Store, and has nothing to do with the user experience. Apple rakes 30% from all app sales as a thank you to developers who provide you with software that makes you want to buy their devices, after forcing them to write it in their language using their tools of course.

Jailbreaking pretty much involves clicking a few buttons and waiting for your iPod to restart. You just need to make sure you're using one that's compatible with your device model and OS version.

Cool this means that running two different dictionaries and switching between them would not be such a hassle anymore? Ideally I could copy and paste certain words and carry them from one to the other with very little extra clicking?

There's copy and paste since v3. You just drag over the selected text and tap copy/cut. To paste you just hold down on a text field for a second and then tap paste.

I've already asked Belton about this, would the 3rd generation 32GB Ipod Touch suffice? Currently fro 299$ from Apple store. Also you are speaking about OS4 coming out and allowing multitasking. So you do speculate that September this year might be the time for the release? Is it easy then to update OS systems in iphones/ipods?

Only the 8GB model has the low specs. The 16 and 32GB ones have the updated 3GS hardware. Keep in mind that the OS and whatever else takes up 1GB or so, so you don't actually get to use all of the storage.

From what I hear it's September, and that's when new iPods are usually released. However, I'm assuming the iPhone will be released sooner, so they could release the update to coincide with that. You have to use iTunes regularly to sync, and it alerts you of any updates and allows you to easily download and install them. Apple decided to charge £6 or so for the v3 update, and since v4 is the biggest update ever I'm guessing they'll be throwing in another one of their trademark customer loyalty bonuses. At least there'll be enough changes to make it worth it this time.

Oh yeah, and AnkiMini is the full version (just about) of Anki for iPod. It's an SRS flashcard program that's awesome for learning vocabulary and reviewing kanji. You can use it to memorise any facts you want, and it supports various forms of media. The reason I decided to jailbreak was so I could use audio flashcards on the go. See the website and a useful forum for resources and help on related topics if you're not into this sort of thing yet.

http://ichi2.net/anki/
http://ichi2.net/anki/whyreview.html (SRS explanation)
http://forum.koohii.com/index.php

[Belton]

How good are they? I've heard about them but until my MBP gets here I can't test them out.

Very good. They are electronic versions of Shogakukan's dictionaries
大辞泉
プログレッシブ英和・和英中辞典
類語例解辞典
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daijisen
Totally cross referenced, you just click links to jump, and with live searches, no waiting at all.
I don't use it often myself but you can also get inline popup definitions of text systemwide through left clicking or Ctrl-clicking.

... or one can run Parallels or some other virtual server that allows Windows being opened in a separate window while working in OS. Now I've got a question about this: MS Windows IME Pad is really good for kanji handwritten recognition but it's part of the Windows OS system - i.e. in Japanese keyboard - not a specific application. So If I was to be able to use it simultaneously with OS X I would have to have the option to really switch easily between the two operating systems, not just OS X and a program that runs under Windows. Is this possible? And if it is, what do you need to install all this? (I assume I'd have to buy Parallels and Windows OS?)

I think I know what you want and I doubt you can split out the functionality of the IME pad using emulation to get it on the Mac side.
While I can run the IME pad in Parallels coherence mode (essentially makes it look as if programs are running under Mac OS, you don't see the Windows desktop and can turn off the windows taskbar etc as you choose) The insert command won't paste it across to a Mac application you would need to use notepad to receive the input and copy it from there.

Yes you'd have to spend money. But since you've moved from Windows maybe you already have Windows install disks.
Parallels does come up every so often as part of the MacUpdate bundles at a discount. It's where I bought my copy.
http://www.mupromo.com/

The WINE project is another possibility.
http://www.winehq.org/
I just found it easier to buy Parallels and be done with it.

Belton could you please describe a bit more how this works? I looked at their web but could not figure that out. It seems that the software translates anything written - so if I was to write an kanji it'd do that as well.

it's primarily for written input in a window similar to the IME pad but bigger. It interprets what you write and presents alternatives for you to chose from in case it gets it wrong (or you get stroke order wrong). It's quite accurate though. From there it inserts into the frontmost application. You can input full sentences at natural speed or single characters.
I use Axiotron's Beta implementation in, it's only just come out of bets. They have a 30 day trial for you to test it out.

Well If I am not wrong, there's an application that allows all the Jim Breen's dictionaries and Eijiro to be searched at the same time:
http://itunes.apple.com/app/ebpocket-pr ... 39933?mt=8
It costs only 5$. I have not yet tried it so I can't say how user-friendly the interface is. What do you think of this option?

I downloaded the free version, but haven't time to check it out at the moment. It looks interesting I'll post again tomorrow after I've had a look.

great this is probably something I wanted to hear. I opened this thread for I wanted to know whether it was reasonable for me to ditch my broken PDA4700 which had Eijiro and the whole set of Breen's dictionaries on it and go for Ipod Touch.

The only thing I'll say is both it and the Mac will take a bit to get used to because they are different from what you had before. There will be things you miss and new features you may come to love. As yet there is no perfect system.

I was considering these two models:
http://www.apple.com/ipodtouch/specs.html
http://www.apple.com/ipodtouch/specs-8.htm

In the present lineup I'd definitely go with the 32 MB model. It's what I bought. Didn't need the 64MB storage ( I've barely filled 4 or 5 GB so far) and wanted the better processor to extend it's useful life, which I felt was worth the extra expense.

For me the best handwriting input was the Ipaq4700 with Japanese WM OS system on it. I.e. a system produced for Japanese users with integratred handwritten recognition - using a stylus. Absolutely no complains, could find any kanji very fast. Basically my PDA is very similar to what this guy is selling:
http://www.japaneselanguagetools.com/

I know that site.
Unfortunately I've never used the ipaq system. I've no doubt it's a good system, I much prefer direct stylus input myself. I get a lot of use out of educational titles on the DS using direct input. (But would only recommend the dictionary to someone who already had a DS as a cheap way to enter the realm of electronic dictionaries) I always wanted a Sony Clie with Japanese Decuma on it but never got around to it and now they're long gone.

[Ivo]

Very good. They are electronic versions of Shogakukan's dictionaries
大辞泉
プログレッシブ英和・和英中辞典
類語例解辞典
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daijisen
Totally cross referenced, you just click links to jump, and with live searches, no waiting at all.
I don't use it often myself but you can also get inline popup definitions of text systemwide through left clicking or Ctrl-clicking.

That does sound great. I typically use web-based dictionaries such as ALC, Jim Bree's Web or goo. But having something which doesn't require web access would be helpful + again it's a question of speed. I like when things are fast.

I think I know what you want and I doubt you can split out the functionality of the IME pad using emulation to get it on the Mac side.
While I can run the IME pad in Parallels coherence mode (essentially makes it look as if programs are running under Mac OS, you don't see the Windows desktop and can turn off the windows taskbar etc as you choose) The insert command won't paste it across to a Mac application you would need to use notepad to receive the input and copy it from there.
Yes you'd have to spend money. But since you've moved from Windows maybe you already have Windows install disks.

You know I actually bought my MBP from a vendor that sends Paraellels as a bonus". So I am getting this software so to speak for free.
Now I understand that I can't past and copy from one window to the other (i.e. need to use notepad) . But if I got it right, you are saying that you can use IME Pad without any problems? Well that would solve some of the issues I guess.

it's primarily for written input in a window similar to the IME pad but bigger. It interprets what you write and presents alternatives for you to chose from in case it gets it wrong (or you get stroke order wrong). It's quite accurate though. From there it inserts into the frontmost application. You can input full sentences at natural speed or single characters.
I use Axiotron's Beta implementation in, it's only just come out of bets. They have a 30 day trial for you to test it out.

That sounds really good. I will have to look into the program once I have my MBP here. How much did you pay for that software? Too bad that my Macbook isn't a tablet...for with that type of software it would be a perfect machine for working with Japanese text, amongst others.

I downloaded the free version, but haven't time to check it out at the moment. It looks interesting I'll post again tomorrow after I've had a look.

Super, please let me know what you think of it. I've read somewhere that this is the best app for Ipod and Japanese dictionaries out there these days. I mean if you can combine all the Breen's dictionaries + eijiro it'd say that's a great deal. I am not sure that you can get sample sentences from the Tanaka corpus...I think that's where Breen is getting his sample sentences from. If that was possible such software would be close to perfect for very little money.

The only thing I'll say is both it and the Mac will take a bit to get used to because they are different from what you had before. There will be things you miss and new features you may come to love. As yet there is no perfect system.

Yes, I am pretty much worried about the process of "getting used to use Apple":). Actually I switched to Apple because the MBP seemed to be the best notebook out there when you consider portability, build quality, screen quality, the limited noise that it produces etc. I.e. it was hardware, rather than software, that made me switch. Before that I had Lenovo laptops all the time but recently they've had trouble with some hardware components....e.g. i bought a new T410s (a very good machine) but it suffered from CPU whine...high-pitched noise coming from the CPU. And after I've done a lot of research I've come to the conclusion that if you consider everything including the price in the portable category, MacBook Pro is the best machine on the market. That said I am really worried about switching to OS X and the whole architecture. My sense is that Apple is very restrictive and sometimes outright pushy when it comes to user experience.

In the present lineup I'd definitely go with the 32 MB model. It's what I bought. Didn't need the 64MB storage ( I've barely filled 4 or 5 GB so far) and wanted the better processor to extend it's useful life, which I felt was worth the extra expense.

Yeah, I will be the same then. I've just looked into the jailbreaking process and as mentioned in this thread, it looks fairly simple. I should do that to allow better functionality.

I know that site.
Unfortunately I've never used the ipaq system. I've no doubt it's a good system, I much prefer direct stylus input myself.

I can assure you that the system is fantastic when it comes to its software...it's designed for Japanese users and it recognizes everything very fast. Of course getting the right stroke order helps (is not always necessary though). That said I don't worry about stroke order - I think that's only a problem for beginners or someone who doesn't really know Japanese. I've never had problems with that...always found anything I was looking for. Moreover, the system allows you to input katakana, hiragana, kanji at the same time..it also has an option for 3 window pads next to each other...ie. you can type one kanji after another (or katakana or hiragana) without having to click on enter or anything inbetween...i.e. it can be really fast when you input stuff. The only disadvantage is the hardware, in my opinion: PDAs (at least Ipaq4700) is much bulkier than Ipod, it is also more expensive, it is more prone to damage and generally a much more sensitive device. And the software is also often buggy....the system tends to freeze more often that you'd like it to. Ipod on the otherhand seems to be sturdy and light.

Anyhow let me know what you find out tomorrow. Thanks a lot!!! This has been one of the most fruitful debates on a forum I've had in a long time. Both of you guys, thanks for the input.