'Kanpai' = 'Kanhai' in Kanji????

[Duality]

Hi folks. Just a quick question.

In lesson 1 of the introduction to this site, we're shown the word 'Kanpai' and told it is comprised of the kanji 乾杯...

However, I've noticed that almost all sites list the readings of the individual kanji as 'Kan' and 'HAI' respectively... Kanhai? Howcome it makes a 'P' sound then?

This is probably too advanced for me to really be dabbling in but I'm curious.

Thankyou!

[Belton]

Well, first off the kanji don't contain sound information as such. So if the spoken language changes that word would still be written 乾杯
However at the moment it's never kanhai.
So it's tempting to say it just "is".

consider counting to three glasses

一杯　いっぱい
二杯　にはい
三杯　さんばい

(or 日本　which can be にほん or にっぽん)

So the sound changes depending on the preceding sound.
the combination ん and は tends to change to ば or ぱ as far as I've observed. (however it isn't consistent enough to make a hard and fast rule about)

I'm a little surprised that the variations BAI and PAI aren't listed in Kanjidic. (possibly because it's a modification rather than a different reading) I haven't got any other dictionary near me at the moment so I don't know how it'd be listed in them.

[Duality]

Hmmm.... Confusing! Thankyou for the information. I guess this is one of those things I just need to 'accept' for now. =)

[ned1972]

From some texts I have read the pronounciation of words changes based on aesthetics. I remember clearly a lesson on this site that talked of how nihon ( sorry, cannot write in kanji write now) was at times pronounced nippon, though in actuality the word is written with the kanji for day (nichi) and (book, origin), hon. So it would techically be pronounced nichihon, but for euphony it is pronounced nihon.

Just my two cents, though I am by no means an expert.

[QuackingShoe]

When a certain unvoiced sound is used (example: か), any voiced version of that sound may possibly be used instead when making words (example: が) if it's not the first part of the word. This is not listed among it's readings in a dictionary, because it's a univeral rule and not a unique property of an individual kanji. For example, 地 includes dictionary entries for both ち and じ(I'm assuming じ was originally ぢ) because both sounds may be used at whim, including at the start of words (地震, for example). But 血 only includes ち in it's entries, as ぢ/じ only results from this universal rule (鼻血). Similarly with 杯, 千, 歳, etc.

Additionally, onyomi that end in つ and ち and sometimes other things (largely く) frequently become a glotal stop (っ) in kanji compounds, frequently before unvoiced consonants. So, にっぽん makes perfect sense as a reading of 日本. This sort of thing isn't listed in dictionaries either, btw.

Other examples: 学（がく) + 校(こう) = 学校(がっこう).
All of the counters have somewhat straightforward rules, in that many change voicing on 三, 六, and/or 八: 百(ひゃく) becomes 三百(さんびゃく), 六百 (ろっぴゃく), and 八百 (はっぴゃく). 千(せん) becomes 三千(さんぜん), and additionally becomes 一千(いっせん) and 八千(はっせん), demonstrating the other rule - as いち, ろく, and はち end in ち/く, they often demonstrate this rule.
気が付く(きがつく) can be shortened to 気付く, which is read (きづく).

Anyway, it may seem like a bit much, but you get used to it rather quickly and very often can correctly guess how any given word is going to be read. After all, would you want to say はちせん or いちはい? It's just awkward. はっせん and いっぱい are a lot better.

[Duality]

Thanks QuackingShoe, that's good information though I do have a bit of a hard time really wrapping my head around it as I have so little experience dealing with kanji (or even many words) at this time.

Do you have any general advice for the newbie such as myself with regards to this stuff? Should I just accept for now that kanji X = sound Y in context Z?

[QuackingShoe]

Do you have any general advice for the newbie such as myself with regards to this stuff? Should I just accept for now that kanji X = sound Y in context Z?

I'd say so, yeah. Largely that's how I've learned everything anyway, as I've never 'studied' readings, per se, and just learn them as I acquire vocabulary. You'll always be learning new 'sound Y in context Z' examples, because there are a lot of times when a kanji will use a completely off-the-wall reading. As it happens, many of the most common words, such as those for various family relations, use readings that aren't listed. お母さん, お父さん, お姉さん, お兄さん, 伯父さん, on and on, なか isn't even a reading of 腹, despite the word お腹, and even the word 日本 (when read にほん) itself, as mentioned. None of these pose any problem because they are indeed socommon, but you'll sometimes run into words like 黄昏(たそがれ), 悪戯(いたずら), and 撫子(なでしこ - this one's not too bad) as you move on.

Eventually you pick up what the most common ones are (the ones that get listed in dictionaries), however, and they will be used in the vast majority of words that use a particular kanji. And it's fortunately a very self-sustaining cycle. You learn a word, and it helps you remember a kanji reading; that kanji helps you learn a new word; those two words help you better remember that reading; that helps you learn yet another word; and so on. Eventually the little neural webs you build start making things quite easy.