~wa to ~ga help!!

[maddict]

HI guys,

SO I've been learning to change from ~wa to ~ga. Anyone care to explain if

わたしはえいがをみました。and わたしがみたえいが。

has the same meaning and politeness as the other?

And can I also use the same form for verbs like ikimasu eg: わたしがいくとうきょう

Thanks for all the help

[mieth]

at your current level you shouldnt be too concerned with it. Japanese people themselves cant explain the difference between wa and ga so certainly any explanation to you at this phase wont help you much. I recommend you listen to the Jpod lessons and concentrate more on putting the verb at the end of your sentences rather than being concerned whether or not you are using wa or ga correctly. I have lived in Japan for two years and throughout this entire time I have been going to language schools and I still dont 100 percent know when to use either. It is a sense thing. So for your case just listen to the jpod lessons over and over and over.

watashi ga iku tokyou is no good. watashi ga or ha tokyou ni iku is good. your verb being at the end of the sentence is a much much larger problem.

Good luck. BTW please do not take this post as a flame in any way because it is not. Just the best advice I can think of for you so that you dont quit learning.
Cheers!!

[maddict]

Hmmm,

I think you got it all confused meith. I've learned about the subject particle が and have no trouble with verbs at the end of sentences.

I was referring to noun modification by sentences. Specifically from the minna no nihongo book 1 lesson 22. There's an example:

わたしはせんしゅうえいがをみました that can be converted to わたしがせんしゅうみたえいが。

The explaination given for わたしはせんしゅうえいがをみました : I saw a movie last week.

And わたしがせんしゅうみたえいが : The movie that I saw last week.

So I was wondering if the 2 sentences have the same meaning and politeness?

[Psy]

In this case, the difference is easy to explain. What you're dealing with is called a relative clause, and it refers to an entire subject+verb clause modifying a word much as an adjective would. As you wrote, わたしはせんしゅうえいがをみました means "I saw a movie last week." This is a complete sentence. When you convert it to わたしがせんしゅうみたえいが, it is no longer a complete sentence, but rather a clause modifying a the noun えいが. It describes えいが (a movie) as something わたしがみた (that I saw). In effect, the わたしがみたえいが is itself a functional word that could be placed in another sentence:

わたしがみたえいがは・・・つまらなかった (the movie that I saw... was boring)
わたしがみたえいがは・・・バットマンというえいがです」 (the movie that I saw... is a movie called "batman")
わたしがみたえいがは・・・三ヶ国では禁止されています (the movie that I saw... is banned in 3 countries)

The rule is that in any such clause you use が for the subject instead of は, because using は would set word apart as the current overall topic. If I dare try an example:

（わたしは）わたしがみたえいがは・・・つまらないと思います (I think that the movie that I saw... is boring)

（わたしは）たなかさんがみたえいがは・・・つまらないと思います (I think that the movie Mr. Tanaka saw... is boring)

（わたしは）たなかさんはみたえいがは・・・つまらないと思います (Who is thinking what? Can you tell who saw the movie and who thinks the movie was boring? The topic of "I" is inferred in the other two sentences but can't be here.)

That's my (albeit imperfect) understanding. Hope it can give some small insight. Corrections welcome.

[hajime]

Here are a few things to think about (in addition to becoming one with the notion that the natural sense of が is developed over many years of immersion).

1) I forget where I read this, but I will try to dig up the reference (i have a lot of Japanese language books, never learned a thing until I found JPod101). 私は 何何 verb is a natural sentence: "I something something verb". It puts the emphasis of the sentence on the subject/speaker (watashi). 私が puts the emphasis on what follows が. For example, 私は高橋です。 I am Takahashi. However, consider the situation where three people who don't know each other very well meet up on the street. Person "A" is Watanabe. Person "B" is Yamada. Person "C" is Takahashi. Watanabe says to Takahashi: 山田さん、お元気ですか？(Yamada-san how are you?, i.e. he mixes up to the two people). Takahashi-san might say: 私が高橋です。It puts the emphasis on the end of the sentence: I am Takahashi.

2) が can be used to ask for more information. 新宿に行きたいんですが。I want to go to Shinjuku and... The use of が at the end of the sentence implies that the speaker wants sometihng more. Consider the case where you are a tourist and you are at the concierge desk in the hotel. The natural implication is that you want to know how to get to Shinjuku. Again, note how the emphasis is on something that follows the が which in this case is unsaid: can I get directions? do you have a map? will you take me there?

3) another "more information" example. One of the beginner season 2 lessons (the one about the pub) has: キリンとハイナケンとサッポロがありますが。This is an interesting sentence because it uses が twice! The first が is the familiar がある form: We have 何何。(we have these 3 beers). The following が can be thought of as "and..." (in this case the implication is "and, which one do you want"?).

4) This is my favorite. You kind of have to be in Japan to really experience this. You are at a restaurant with friends. You want to pay and you know your friends don't want you to pay (but they make less money than you). The bill comes. You take the bill, they want the bill, they are grabbing for their wallets. You simply say: 私が。That's it, that's the whole sentence. Everyone in Japan above the age of 12 or so will understand that this means "I will pay". This is my favorite example of が。 No way that is a gramatically complete sentence but everyone will understand it in its context. It simply means "I will...". Of course, what follows is "pay".

As others have said don't get too hung up on this. Listen for the natural usages of が and learn them. Collect correct sentences. It's the best way to learn Japanese. Even if some of those sentences don't seem to be complete.

[Psy]

1) I forget where I read this, but I will try to dig up the reference (i have a lot of Japanese language books, never learned a thing until I found JPod101). 私は 何何 verb is a natural sentence: "I something something verb". It puts the emphasis of the sentence on the subject/speaker (watashi). 私が puts the emphasis on what follows が.

I really hate to add confusion to an already confusing topic, but I believe you have it backwards: が emphasizes the subject, は emphasizes the predicate, e.g.:

どこへ行きましたか？ doko e ikimashita ka "where did [you] go?"
(私は）パン屋へ行きました。pan'ya e ikimashita. "I went to the bakery."

誰がパン屋へ行きましたか？ dare ga pan'ya e ikimashita ka "who went to the bakery?"
私が行きました。 I went.

は is something understood from context by both speakers, either implied or being directly talked about. が isn't-- in the case of the 2nd question, who's being talked about isn't contextually clear, so in the answer it is explicitly stated: 私が. In the same case as when you offer to pay, you are actually answering the unstated question "who will pay?" (誰が払いますか）This is different from when you're telling your friends at the restaurant what you want to eat. The unstated question in this case is "what will you have to eat?" The "you" part is already in-context, so you can reply to the tune of (私は）牛丼にします "I will have the gyuudon."

2) が can be used to ask for more information. 新宿に行きたいんですが。
. . .
3) another "more information" example. One of the beginner season 2 lessons (the one about the pub) has: キリンとハイナケンとサッポロがありますが。

There is some argument as to whether or not が in these usages is related at all to the が as a subject marker. Grammatically speaking they are different even though they sound the same, so it might be best not to try combining them in your head.

As others have said don't get too hung up on this. Listen for the natural usages of が and learn them. Collect correct sentences. It's the best way to learn Japanese. Even if some of those sentences don't seem to be complete.

Couldn't have said it better. Exposure, exposure, exposure! が and は have tons of usages.

[QuackingShoe]

As Psy says, が emphasizes what precedes, は emphasizes what follows (I wouldn't necessarily contrast subject/predicate in this case - は will move around in a sentence to emphasize different parts of the predicate). There's a lengthy section in Making Sense of Japanese: What the Textbooks Don't Tell You by Jay Rubin on this topic, and I would recommend it. When explained as he explains it, it really isn't as complicated as it's often made out to be. Especially when it comes to 'the many uses of は and が,' which really aren't. Many, I mean.

[Javizy]

You've got that a bit back to front. It's probably not a good idea to bring conjunctive が into the は-が equation, I think that's where the confusion arises.

お前は一体だれだ?
Who on earth are you?
(私は)高橋です。
(As for me) I'm Takahashi.

「お前は」makes the person being asked the question the topic of discussion, so any reference to him is marked with は. When we know what the topic is, it's not important to reiterate it, that's why we usually use ellipsis. The important information comes after the topic, and this is what は throws the emphasis onto.

だれが高橋なのかな。
Who is Takahashi, I wonder?
私が(高橋です)。
I (as opposed to anyone else) am Takahashi.

Here there is no topic, and we need to introduce one with が. We already know all about Takahashi, the question is who is he? By saying 私が, you're saying that you, nobody else, is Takahashi, and so が emphasises what comes before it. That's why you can use it when it comes to paying the bill; it's the answer to the unasked question 'だれが払う?'.

The key in understanding the differences is in understanding the concepts of topic and subject. Unfortunately, it's often a fine line, and other structures like contrastive は, attributive は~が, and relative clauses only further confuse things. There's a lot of good information in Seiichi Makino's A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, and Jay Rubin's Making Sense of Japanese, if anybody is interested in something more specific.

[mieth]

all this brings us back to square one. Dont worry about it. Just listen to the conversations. Really you have to just experience the feeling go with it. Javizy and Psy know a ton about grammar but to be honest I dont really understand it. Not even in english. If you walk down the street and ask someone to start explaining sentence subject markers and such most people will a- not understand and b- if they do understand wont be able to explain it. even in their own language. So dont worry about it. You are never going to be able to utter even one sentence if you are so concerned with your wa and gas. Its like my teachers who try to teach pronunciation during class. they spend half an hour drawing the ups and downs of the pronunciation over the words. A complete waste of time. Your better off just listening a bunch of times. If you spend all that time thinking about all those pronunciation queues you arent going to be able to catch the rest of what is being said. anyway good luck.