Complete Immersion-Where Even To Start?

[reboundstudent]

I'm not sure what category this correctly falls under, but I thought I'd throw it in this one, so apologies Moderator.

I studied Japanese for 3 years in University, but even studying for 20 extra hours outside the classroom was not enough to earn me even passable Japanese. I can read hiragana and I'm pretty adapt at kanji, but my speaking and listening comprehension skills are ranging in the beginner's level.

I love JapanesePod, because I can listen to the beginner's section with vocabulary and sentence structures I am already very familiar with, but be able to really grasp the sounds of it.

I have tried "immersion" in the past-listening only to Japanese TV, watching Japanese movies with the subtitles off, reading Japanese-only manga. However, the frustration was overwhelming. A newscast made me burst into tears-because I couldn't comprehend almost any of the words being said, yet I could read and pick out vocabulary I knew in the subtitles when I went back to check.

I've gotten taken down pretty properly on other sites for disagreeing with AJATT method. Is it possible to work towards fluency while still checking words in English-Japanese dictionaries, or not using an SRS, or not searching through endless piles of books for example sentences?

[Belton]

It's sad that a university language degree can't equip someone with conversational skills.
In the UK you usually have to spend at least a semester in a university in the target languages country, so I'd hope they'd first equip you with some speaking ability.

It sounds as if you're finding it a frustrating chore rather than enjoyable.
I can identify with the "oh my God I'm getting nowhere close to tears feeling." I think everyone gets it from time to time.

I don't quite believe in the mystical "absorb it through your pores approach" or do it "just like a child" approach (btw children don't actually learn language like that).
On the Internet you've no idea about anyones claims about how well they can perform or how easy it was. And AJATT does seem very much an Internet-fed meme.
What you have is lots of inexpert opinion and it's up to you to pick through it and find things that might work for you as well.

So here's my mess of opinion...

I believe learning a language takes a bit of applied work using level appropriate material to step up your ability. It seems unrealistic to hope you can deal with native level material from the outset. But then maybe some people have a very good ear and memory for entire sentences and structures, and can work out grammar and idioms on the fly. I know I can't. Like many things it's a gradual process. Teachers and courses can help you.

I find SRS useful to an extent. I'm enjoying www.iknow.co.jp at the moment. I find however it seems to give me more of a passive vocabulary than an active one. It takes time for me to get those words out of an SRS situation and into my instant (ish) conversational vocabulary.
Sentence mining. I've never done it. But phrases and words that go together are better than single words. Context plays a large role in any language. Usage examples clarify grammar rules. So it's good to find them. If you can read, read material that interests you.
Dictionaries. Well, great for more passive activities. Reading and writing, maybe instant messaging. But there just isn't time in conversation usually, and even then I'd say you'd tend to instantly forget the word. I find I overuse dictionaries sometimes as well when reading and writing instead of relying more on what I already know.
Ideally you have to move away from translating. You have to integrate the words so that for instance 食べるfixes itself to the act of eating rather than the English word "to eat" The big plus of using J-J dictionaries (if you can) is you get more practice and a better insight into the usage, nuance and meaning of a word than a headword to headword dictionary. (I find I usually have to do reverse searches as well to check I've gotten it correct)

I don't know where you could find them, as it seems to be much more of a classroom activity, but a form of mediated comprehension might be better. This can be authentic material but you are prepped by being told the subject and maybe being given sample vocabulary. Then tested (could be a self test) on general comprehension through English first then Japanese. You don't have to understand everything as long as you understand the important point.

Even in day to day activities requiring Japanese you could prep yourself before doing them. You want to buy a train ticket? Write out your destinations. Check vocabulary and phrases you'd use or possibly hear; take a deep breath and approach the counter! Most Japanese employees I met were patient and helpful. Eventually after you get to know the routine you don't have to prep yourself. or it worked that way with me anyhow.

Active listening where you try to take dictation or partial dictation is better than "just" listening. You can check what you're mishearing if you have a transcript. The next time you're less likely to mishear it. You can see what you are hearing properly.

Shadowing is another effective technique to improve listening and speaking.

You do seem to be in a stronger position than most if you have a good grasp of written Japanese, vocabulary and grammar. What you need to do is leverage this knowledge to up your speaking and listening ability.

I think you need to define realistic goals for yourself. short term and long term.
Why are you learning Japanese? What do you want to do with it? Lone travel? JLPT? Postgrad work? Job?

Then I think you should *use* the Japanese you do have in conversation. Conversation is better than listening to videos etc. because it's interactive. You can get feedback to make sure you've understood. If you can't find someone local use Skype and find people in Japan. It can be slow at the start but you will gain confidence and ability.

You also need to stretch yourself a bit. If you are comfortable with beginner dialogues here mix in some intermediate.

Prepare. Do exercises. Then take those skills out to interact with real world situations.

The important thing is to keep plugging away at it. Post university it gets harder to find the time and impossible to devote 24/7 to it. Enjoy the journey (it may never end)
Savour your small victories. Compete only with yourself. Concentrate on what you can do rather than worry about what you can't. Learn to use what you do know to express yourself.

[jkid]

I don't quite believe in the mystical "absorb it through your pores approach" or do it "just like a child" approach

Either do I.

For those interested here is a set of youtube videos featuring the creator of the AJATT website talking about his method. It is a fairly long interview broken up into several parts. Also, I can't remember for certain but there may be some course language.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J34i9lr94pI

[Javizy]

I think you need to try to relax as much as possible when listening. If you stress out, it doesn't make things any easier, and inevitably you either understand or you don't, so just try to take in what you can. I think a lot of things are necessary to become proficient, including good old-fashioned listening and speaking, but if you're having trouble with everything audio, have you considered listening to things that you can read before or after?

Instead of listening to Beginner lessons, move up to one of the higher levels and try to pick up what you can. The most recent Upper Intermediate lessons have been really good at explaining the dialogue, so that you can understand by the time it's played at the end. If you're still having trouble, read through the PDF, learn the words you don't know, and listen to it again.

After you can understand it well enough, start repeating it out loud as you listen (shadowing), using the PDF where you need it. This really tests how well you understand it, since you have to quickly reproduce exactly what was said yourself. Mimicking native speakers like this will also improve your accent, and help you remember the structures and words, so that you can reproduce them in conversation.

Try going through 5-6 lessons in this fashion during the week, until you can shadow them without the PDF. Then add the dialogue-only tracks to your MP3 player, and shadow them every day for a couple of weeks. Try to make it a part of your study routine, getting new dialogues prepared every couple of weeks.

You can get more inventive with this technique if you have other audio sources with transcripts. I bought the Death Note manga as a step up from Doraemon, which also has a TV series, so I applied the technique to this, which was really effective. It was almost strange watching a 20-minute episode and understanding just about every word. Of course, if you threw a new episode at me, I'd struggle, but every time you do something like this, it brings you one step closer to understanding the language as a whole.

As for sentence mining, I find it invaluable for learning to read kanji, and since you're forced to remember readings, I find that a lot of words work their way into my active vocabulary, although that's not what it aims to do, as far as I'm aware. I really think everybody should do this. Even beginners could probably master JLPT 4 kanji readings in a matter of weeks.

[Belton]

For those interested here is a set of youtube videos featuring the creator of the AJATT website talking about his method.

He comes over as a much nicer and interesting (and less egotistical) person on video than off the page on his website. (I can't say the same for his video-making buddy though.)

I must say there's a big jump from remembering phrases to only having a few holes in vocabulary though. It's like those learn to draw ads in comicbooks that go from step three boxes to step four detailed and nicely rendered full figure. There's a lot of time and practice in between.

Yes he's right. Audio input and getting used to the sounds improves how you will speak. Probably more important in Japanese than English as there seems to be less redundancy in the sounds available so when you mess up you get entirely different words.

And he's right it takes time and practice and input.

I'm not that sure about accent. It will come from your environment and the people you speak with over time. It's more important to be clear. I've found adult Japanese can go in and out of standard Japanese and dialects anyhow.

I can never understand the obsession over plain vs polite Japanese. You need both. But I understand that polite is the safer one to use first. Ok if you use polite you can sound distant but plain in the wrong situation could make you sound like a selfish child. Adult Japanese is about finding the correct register to speak in.

I'm also not sure about being able to pick words out of the mass of sounds you hear in Anime or Tv or where-ever. My experience is I can pick out words and phrases I've studied at a slower pace. (especially true of music). Having sound on in the background doesn't seem effective to me I think you need to be a bit more active. There's a benefit to reading a grammar in that someone else has found out the pattern for you, so now it'll be easier to pick out that pattern and understand it. It's easier to pick out phrases you've learned at a slower pace.

I would have liked to hear his Japanese.

The website he refers to is very interesting.www.antimoon.com Although the one thing that struck me about was if you can understand it your English is at a level where you probably don't need it anymore. very catch 22.

I also don't know why anyone has to ridicule a method. (especially in a whiney voice like the video-maker) Say you don't like. Say it isn't effective for you. Explain your reasoning. But descending to a schoolyard stance seems a bit counterproductive.

I also understand being excited about something that works for you and wanting to help other people. But what does it matter how good or bad someone else is at language... it doesn't make you any better or your arguments any stronger...

(I'm getting a bit disillusioned of blogs, bbses etc. I think I need to spend my time more productively. meh )

anyhow interesting video thanks for the link.

[Taurus]

I don't quite believe in the mystical "absorb it through your pores approach" or do it "just like a child" approach (btw children don't actually learn language like that).

I think that's a bit unfair on the AJATT guy. I think his problem, and Heisig's problem, is that they both come across as snake-oil salesmen, because of their tone. But I think his approach to learning Japanese has a lot of merit. I think a more accurate summary of his approach is that it consists of learning grammar through sentence patterns rather than grammar explanations, and increasing your exposure to sentence patterns by use of SRS flashcards and total immersion.

I remember when I was at university (studying history) I was taught by quite a distinguished professor for a term (even though professors weren't supposed to teach undergraduates - he was teaching me because my college tutor had forgotten to arrange any tutorials for me). I remember that he reckoned the fastest way to learn a language (and he was fluent in about five or six) was to use parallel texts - books that have their native language on one page, and a translation on the facing page. And actually that's pretty similar to the AJATT approach, except that the AJATT approach uses SRS like steroids, to pump up the rate at which you're understanding native sentences.

I think you're right that every learner should try to find the learning techniques that work for them, because everybody's brain is slightly different. There are a lot of people, for example, who reckon that just learning vocabulary is ineffective. On balance, I'm one of them, but I've actually found that as my vocabulary has grown bigger (through rote learning), I've found it easier to understand Japanese and make myself understood. There are also people who swear by SRS flashcards. I've recently been trying to use Anki to learn a chapter of vocabulary from Minna no Nihongo and I've found it's taken me about a week and it still doesn't feel like it's gone in. Using simple rote learning and mnemonics, it usually takes me about an hour or so.

Nevertheless, I'm going to give this sentence-mining/increased exposure approach a go over the next month or so and see how I get on when I go to Japan for the New Year. Then I'm going to decide if it's working for me or not.

[WalterWills]

I think your frame of mind is the most important thing...I don't know what's came over me, but nowadays learning Japanese is the ONLY thing I want to do.

[QuackingShoe]

Can I get some of whatever you've got WalterWills?

[reboundstudent]

I've just found that sentence mining is very ineffective for me. I love sentences as examples... but when I put sentences into SRS, I memorize the sentence without actually getting any of the vocabulary or grammar details. I understand grammar points a lot more when I can spot ones I already know in sentences. I guess you could say I learn by details first, then seeing the big picture-I'm a lot better at picking out broader concepts among details than finding details among broader concepts.

Does that make sense? Can sentence mining work for me and I've just been doing it wrong?

[Belton]

I don't quite believe in the mystical "absorb it through your pores approach" or do it "just like a child" approach (btw children don't actually learn language like that).

I think that's a bit unfair on the AJATT guy. I think his problem, and Heisig's problem, is that they both come across as snake-oil salesmen, because of their tone.

Well, I was thinking more of the "if I watch Anime I'll somehow learn Japanese" mindset.
In some ways it seems that this is what the AJATT guy seems to claim. If you watch the video he claims that by having a Cantonese anime on in the background he is learning Cantonese. And it's easy to latch on to that and miss the hard stuff of using SRS and sentences like crazy to gain fluency.
The tone of his website does him no favours. But then again maybe it does. Maybe he knows his audience quite well and speaks to people for whom more academic classroom based methods don't work.
(He and Heisig seem very down on classroom based learning or had bad experiences or something. It seems to me one of the big divides. The people whose experience is from the classroom and the people who do it for themselves usually using the Internet as their primary tool)

I definitely admit the more you do, the more you can listen to, the more you will learn. So if you like background music, Japanese lyrics might give you that tiny bit more input than English lyrics. The more fun it is the more likely it is that you'll stick with it. The more monomaniacal you can be the faster you might learn. Although having that dedication might be a preserve of the young as Tae Kim seems to be experiencing.

There's a smorgasbord of material and methods out there. I don't think there is any "one true way". You have to sample things and find out what works for you. That may involve dead ends now and then, or maybe just taking a break to introduce some variety and stop things becoming stale.

So back to the original poster. If it looks like sentence mining doesn't work for you, time to move on and try something else perhaps. Stop banging your head against the wall. Maybe it will work if you come back later after trying something fresher.

That said, my take on the technique of learning sentences is you learn complete utterances rather than individual words and grammar. (although you may want to go to the original source for AJATT's method. I could have his method incorrect.)
So for instance, learning English English, the sentence you need in a pub is "Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps, please." You don't worry about the grammar, you don't worry about individual words. You learn it like a stage script. You also need the cultural knowledge to order at the bar, and how to wait your turn.
Although AJATT seems to discourage creating sentences yourself, you could recycle the vocab [ pint, lager, packet, crisps] and hopefully you can recycle the sentence by plugging in other values. half... bitter, stout, shandy... pork scratchings, peanuts, salt and vinegar. Then you'll need to passively know "What flavour" or "That'll be 6 pounds fifty please." or "I'll have to change the pump" or "I'll bring it to your table" or "Where are you sitting?" and so on.

Actually when I look at it, it's very like the situational Japanese I learnt in evening class.
In addition we learnt the grammar points in the dialogue and learnt to adapt the pattern to our own usage. Doesn't that happen in University style classes? Maybe with no exam pressure my class could afford to just have fun learning...

[Taurus]

So for instance, learning English English, the sentence you need in a pub is "Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps, please." You don't worry about the grammar, you don't worry about individual words. You learn it like a stage script. You also need the cultural knowledge to order at the bar, and how to wait your turn.
Although AJATT seems to discourage creating sentences yourself, you could recycle the vocab [ pint, lager, packet, crisps] and hopefully you can recycle the sentence by plugging in other values. half... bitter, stout, shandy... pork scratchings, peanuts, salt and vinegar. Then you'll need to passively know "What flavour" or "That'll be 6 pounds fifty please." or "I'll have to change the pump" or "I'll bring it to your table" or "Where are you sitting?" and so on.

That, as far as I understand it, is precisely the AJATT method.

[WalterWills]

I've just found that sentence mining is very ineffective for me. I love sentences as examples... but when I put sentences into SRS, I memorize the sentence without actually getting any of the vocabulary or grammar details. I understand grammar points a lot more when I can spot ones I already know in sentences. I guess you could say I learn by details first, then seeing the big picture-I'm a lot better at picking out broader concepts among details than finding details among broader concepts.

Does that make sense? Can sentence mining work for me and I've just been doing it wrong?

I don't know how you're doing it exactly...But I think it's important not to enter anything you don't understand into the SRS. If you read a sentence and there's something you don't understand, i.e. the grammar, then I think you should first ask around and find an explanation, and then put it into the SRS. Afterwards, whenever you come across that sentence in the SRS it serves as revision.

IMO, the main point of sentence mining is to read, over and over again, real Japanese. Eventually you get a good feel of the structure of the language.

I don't know if other people will find this useful, but when I enter sentences into my SRS I always use English translations- I'm not necessarily going to bother reading them each time but it's there if I need to, and also the act of writing the English (in the way which I do), helps with Japanese. For example, for a sentence like 「その装置がどんなに複雑であるかと彼は思い巡らしている。」, my translation would look like this:
「That apparatus how complicated is? -that he thinking-over-is.」
(It makes sense to me!)

For me, doing this helps to become accustomed to the structure of the language, and there are so many parts in that one sentence which you can take and use to make your own sentences when you're writing or speaking.


And about the AJATT method itself, I believe it's the best method, basically because it's not so much a "method" as it is just hardcore, Japanese-obsessed learning. In my experience out of the Japanese people I've spoken to, the ones who are the best at English are the ones who say, when asked how they study English, they say "Umm..well..I kinda, read books and magazines, watch foreign films and TV shows..I don't really study."

And I think the key to sentence-mining is exactly as Belton said, except that you learn to use the grammar from other, unrelated sentences. E.g. "Can I have two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please?" + "That man doesn't have any talent but he has lots of money" = "I don't have any money but can I have two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please?"
Maybe a stupid example （笑）, and perhaps you were already implying that anyway Belton.

[Javizy]

He and Heisig seem very down on classroom based learning or had bad experiences or something. It seems to me one of the big divides. The people whose experience is from the classroom and the people who do it for themselves usually using the Internet as their primary tool

I haven't had any experience of it myself, but I feel cynical about classroom learning because a lot of it seems to be JLPT-oriented. If you compare it to a Heisig+sentence mining kanji and learn-it-as-you-see-it grammar/vocabulary approach, there isn't just a slight gap, the difference is astronomical.

Let's assume we have a budding new student deciding which route to take. If he opts to complete Heisig in 6 months, and adds 10 sentences to Anki with at least 2 unknown kanji readings per day for the following 18 months, I don't see, at least mathematically, how you could defend opting to take 2 years to get to JLPT3, where he's still struggling with Doraemon and recognises about 10% of the kanji.

Naturally, mindsets, short-term and long-term goals, ability, motivation levels, and any number of other factors mean that what works for one person rarely works the same way for another. This leads me to feel that it's quite disappointing the more efficient methods don't work for or suit everyone, but that's life, and if people gain results and confidence, it's all good in the end.

I do feel, however, that there's a tendency with a lot of people to dismiss a lot of these self-learner techniques, simply because they're currently unorthodox, especially with Heisig. I think people should be open to what's out there, not just what's in their teacher's recommendations and textbooks.

I'd like to say that I don't endorse the AJATT method, although aspects of it are undoubtedly effective, and I'm not denying that a good teacher is one of the best things a language learner can have. There's no saying you can't use Heisig while taking a class, or have a teacher to help you with your hardcore sentence mining and immersion.

[Belton]

I don't see the efficiency of learning grammar from a corpus of sentences, most likely unrelated, rather than using someone else's hard work in digesting it down into a page or two in a good grammar book.
It would have taken me an age to work out the basics of verbs just from sentences but it seems you could pick it up very quickly after seeing the pattern spelt out for you in a grammar and in turn that knowledge would make the sentences more useful.

I think it takes a lot of talent or drive to be a self-learner. (and hard work) Maybe that drive allows you to master the unorthodox techniques more easily. And more power to you.

For me, if I care at all about the techniques, my scepticism is not so much they are unorthodox but without pedigree, essentially invented by amateurs before they had learnt the language. (probably catch 22 in that if they'd learnt another way they wouldn't have invented their techniques) I'd say that's why they haven't been adopted into main stream learning and thrive on the Internet. I'm not sure Heisig or AJATT would suit groupwork in a classroom setting, they seem more suited to self-study.
I often wonder what serious research is being done in the field of Japanese as a second language.

For what it's worth my experience of evening classes in Japanese is that they had nothing to do with JLPT. It was quite slow mostly due to the fact it was only 90mins a week and paced according to the mixed ability of the students. It concentrated on speaking rather than writing. But it was fun. motivational, and provided structure and regularity, and the teacher was always helpful.

I can't even say I'm that good at Japanese but I enjoy it, I find the process interesting (which is why I join in threads like this) and am more than content to potter along. My initial motivation was to fill deadtime in my day with something interesting and challenging and not job related.

While I can't read that well or understand TV, Japanese gave me a sense of purpose, I've learnt enough to travel to remoter parts of Japan on my own, talk to strangers, learn about another culture, make good friends and I'd say it has led directly to my getting married next month... For my money that's a (unexpected) prize far beyond being able to read Doraemon or JLPT or anything else, and Heisig, jPod, JLPT, AJATT, blogs, bbses and Japanese learning differences of opinion seem pretty trivial now...
...I suppose I'll have to knuckle down a bit more if I ever want to speak to my in-laws though...

(normal service will now resume and people can go back to the original topic!)

[Taurus]

I don't see the efficiency of learning grammar from a corpus of sentences, most likely unrelated, rather than using someone else's hard work in digesting it down into a page or two in a good grammar book.

I don't want to get too bogged down in this either, but for me the AJATT approach seems very similar, to me, to using classroom study and supporting it with wide reading in Japanese. At the end of the day, whatever approach you will be using, you will be trying to learn new words and how to use them in sentences and how to understand other people when they use them in sentences.

Apart from the increased exposure to Japanese, I guess the biggest methodological difference, which you seem to object to the most, is that the guy from AJATT seems to suggest that the learner should choose which sentences to learn. The principle behind it is that by reading/listening to actual, contemporary Japanese, the learner will end up learning the sentences that are most useful when it comes to understanding actual Japanese. In order to do that they'll still have to look up words in dictionaries and maybe even find grammar explanations (certainly in the examples on his site, the flashcards explain the role of the various particles and differences in politeness levels etc.).

I guess that's why there's an argument that it is an efficient method. It would probably, for example, have saved me the effort of learning an outdated phrase like 'hon no kimochi desu', which just made my wife's family laugh at me, and I might not have bothered with 'nakereba narimasen', learning 'nai to ikemasen' instead.

In any case, the approach that I intend to take is to stick all the sentences from my various textbooks into Anki and learn them first, so I'll still be following a textbook approach and hoping to benefit from someone else's hard work.

I'm not sure how this relates to the original poster's dilemma apart from maybe to say to keep plugging away. It might be demoralising not to understand movies or whatever, but in real life you can ask people to speak slowly and rephrase things. My own recommendation would be to listen to stuff like the podcasts, which have readily available translations, so you can listen to them again after you know what they're saying. Hopefully the second time around you'll pick up more than the first time, and gradually your listening comprehension will improve.