help with a verb conjugation

[jondesousa]

Hi all,

Could anyone tell me if this is the correct translation for the English phrase below?

When we were at . . .

私達がいましたら. . .


Thanks,

Jon

[Javizy]

たら is a sequential conditional, so depending on the second half of the sentence, it may not work. In the clause 1 たら clause 2 structure, clause 1 has to be fulfilled for clause 2 to occur, otherwise たら is ungrammatical. The if/when interpretation depends on the context, however.

10時になったら、寝る。
When it turns 10 o'clock, I'm going to bed.
深夜に起きられたら、怒るぞ。
If I get woken up in the middle of the night, I'll be mad!

In the first example, it's ridiculous to say 'if it becomes 10 o'clock', unless the rapture is upon us or something, so when we're sure clause 1 will take place, we use the 'when' interpretation. Conversely, in the second example, there is no saying the guy is going to be woken up at all, so we use the 'if' interpretation.

もっと安かったら、買うだろう。
If it was cheaper, I'd probably buy it.
私達がいたら、問題にならなかったのに。
If we'd been there, there wouldn't have been a problem.

Adjectives and verbs of existence, or other clauses that express states, usually have a counterfactual meaning, as you can see in the examples. Something is either cheap or it isn't, there's no action involved, but the rules of sequence still clearly apply. So your 私達がいたら, has to be interpreted as 'if' and not 'when'.

If you want to talk about a period of time, the easiest way is to use 時. 「私達がいた時に」literally means 'at the time we were there', which is better translated as 'when we were there'. You can then talk about what happened during this state quite freely.

私達がいた時、母はまだ若かった。
When we were there, my mother was still young.
私達がいた時にヒトカラをしてみた。
When we were there, we tried hitokara.

Hope this helps.

[QuackingShoe]

What's your reference for the meaning of 私達がいたら、問題にならなかったのに ? I've read about this sort of thing, but the information on the counterfactual wasn't very in-depth.

Similarly, I've been having issue with たら followed by the continuous state recently. I haven't seen anything written about it, and the few examples I've seen of the usage so far make it seem like something of a habitual. I'm not convinced, so thoughts welcome.

[Javizy]

I was going by the example in my grammar dictionary:

金があったら、こんなうちにいない。
If I had more money, I wouldn't be in a place like this.

I Googled it, but now I'm glad I used the word 'usually', because I'm not so sure. Maybe 金があったら、たくさんものを買う could mean 'when I have a lot of money' habitual, and 'if I had lots of money' counterfactual. The first two sentences I found are obviously counterfactual, but the third one isn't necessarily (these are my translations, btw).

本当にドラえもんがいたら、何をしてもらいたいですか
If Doraemon really existed (which he doesn't), what would you ask him for?
私にも妻がいたらいいのに
It'd be good if I had a wife, too (but I don't) / I wish I had a wife, too.

詳しい方がいたらお願いします
If somebody knows about this stuff, please help me.

That is a request though, which I find hard to fit into the explanation. I think the key is the sequential aspect I was speaking about, whether it means 'when', 'if', or is counterfactual should be apparent from context.

By 'continuous state', do you mean something like 何かわからなかったら、先生に聞いてる? I have personally never seen a concrete explanation of the difference between habitual plain form and ている. You hear that ている is more common with adverbs of frequency, but recently in a program I heard the line 彼女は毎日練習します, so I really don't have a clue.

[QuackingShoe]

Ah, thanks for the examples. That one example just seemed a little fishy. Hmmm.

Though, I'd think of 金があったら、たくさんものを買う as being more likely to be "When I have, then I will" or the counterfactual "If I had, then I would," and not the habitual "When I have, I do." I think the use of たら with plain takes away the chance of a habitual action, but I may be wrong. Actually, that's why I'm thinking what I am about たら---ている, where it might be the habitual version of the form.

As in your first example. Would that be safe to translate as "When I don't understand something, I ask the teacher?" As opposed to "When/If I don't understanding something, I WILL ask the teacher 何か分からなかったら、先生に聞く. Because I can see a logic behind たら-----ている working out that way. A sort of "When(ever) it is that I don't understand, I am (then) asking the teacher," rationalizing out to a habitual.
My main example was a line from Azumanga Daioh, which was 気が付いたら紙袋の中とか本棚のあいてる所に入ってんの, speaking about cats (in a general way). I can only interpret the 気が付いたら----入ってん as a habitual representing something like "When(ever) I notice, they're inside," making the sentence at large have a loose translation of "It seems like they're always in a paper bag or in the empty space on a bookshelf or something."

Also, I've been under the impression that plain had habitual or future implications while ている meant an action was currently underway at this very moment. To that end I also believed adverbs of frequency were usually paired up with the plain habitual, since よく練習します or 毎日練習します, meaning "I practice often" or "I practice every day." And so I think of 毎日練習しています as"I am practicing every day." Basically the same thing, but a difference. And the difference is important sometimes, like with 住んでいる where your action isn't habitual, it's continuous, because you're always residing there? There are no breaks in your residence, no matter where you are. Despite our use of the habitual in English.

But I haven't looked into it that much, those have just been my standing assumptions. Thoughts? I'd really like to get a decent understanding of these particular points.

You know, it's really sortof distressing that at this point in my Japanese studies I'm still uncertain about such basic things as the tenses and the tara conditional.