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Advice about sentence mining

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Taurus
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Advice about sentence mining

Postby Taurus » November 3rd, 2008 5:56 pm

So I've decided to give this sentence mining technique a go (in case you don't know what I'm talking about, there's more information here, but it broadly boils down to learning vocab and grammar by using spaced repetition software, such as anki, to become familiar with actual Japanese sentences).

I've started by mining my Minna no Nihongo books for sample sentences and putting them into an Anki deck (which I intend to share via the Anki website as soon as I've checked it for errors). But I was wondering if anyone here who's been using the technique had any advice: I'm wondering whether to break down my sample sentences so that they're shorter, and if so, how short. Take the following sample sentence in Minna no Nihongo, for example:

二次会はどこへ行きましたか。
酔っていたので、どこへ行ったか、全然覚えていないんです。
Where did you go for the second party?
As I was drunk, I don't remember where we went.


Is it better to break this down into two sentences? Could it be broken down into even smaller chunks?

Any advice appreciated...

Psy
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Postby Psy » November 3rd, 2008 6:23 pm

Since the two sentences can stand alone, I would break it up. If you wanted, you could also separate the caluses "as I was drunk" and "I don't remember where we went," but were it me I wouldn't go that far. It's always more efficient to recall many shorter pieces of information rather than a few large ones. Also, if at all possible, try to hear the sentence you wish to mime before you mime it.

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Javizy
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Postby Javizy » November 3rd, 2008 6:42 pm

I can't seem to find the page it was on, but somewhere on the Anki site it's recommended that you break down complicated sentences into separate cards. I think the idea is to test yourself on two or three key parts of the sentence, so there isn't so much in it to upset your progress. In your example, if you forget how to read 二次会, you have to fail the card, even if you can easily read 酔っていたので、どこへ行ったか、全然覚えていないんです with no problem.

I don't believe you're supposed to add an English translation either. You just add definitions of words/grammar that you don't already know. Some people add explanatory style Japanese definitions, rather than simple English words, as well.

This is only something I do personally, so don't take it as gospel, but I think using kanji wherever you can is a good idea. The amount of kanji Japanese people can actually read far exceeds the jouyou set, and since it's surprisingly easy to remember readings with Anki, it doesn't hurt to be prepared. Additionally, it gives you a chance at some vocabulary production (at least initially), since you're forced to remember the word itself, as well as what it means.

Taurus
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Joined: October 16th, 2007 9:43 pm

Postby Taurus » November 3rd, 2008 8:07 pm

Cheers for the advice - all useful stuff.

I've left the English translations intact for these sentences because that's how they were listed in my textbook, but I do intend to transition to key word/grammar explanations (and then to Japanese explanations) as soon as I've got the hang of these sentences.

But that does bring me on to another point. The explanation on the all-japanese-all-the-time site implies that you should forget about grammar, but surely you need to know, or find out some grammar to understand the general meaning of a sentence.

Take the following sentence, for example:

あそこに何と書いてあるんですか。


Should I explain, in my Anki flashcards, why this sentence uses 'arun desu ka' instead of just 'aru'? Or should I just indicate the general meaning of the sentence and allow 'input' to provide me with an intuitive understanding of the issue?

And while I'm annoying everyone with questions, does anyone know how to import one or two sentences from one anki deck to another? I understand that you can import whole decks, but I'd like to add one or two cards from another deck to my sample sentences deck.

By the way, I understand the absurdity of asking a load of questions about the process of learning instead of asking a load of questions about actual Japanese, but my OCD isn't going to let me make any headway till I've sorted this stuff out in my head...

QuackingShoe
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Postby QuackingShoe » November 3rd, 2008 9:12 pm

There's no reason, in my opinion, to add English descriptions of grammar points (or translations) when you already know what a sentence means. For instance your aru n desu ka example, you already know what it means, don't you? Otherwise you wouldn't be putting it in your deck. To that end, it really just isn't ever necessary to write something about it. I've personally never had a time where I forgot grammar that was in my sentences, and only very rarely have I forgotten the MEANING of a vocabulary item, and in those (rare) instances it's quite easy to just go look it up again. Of course this just goes with my focus in general - I only really use these flashcards to drill readings and writings into my head, with only the secondary objective of making me review old information. If this was a language with a more normal script, I might not use it at all.

As for how much you should study grammar in general, opinions vary. I tend to get a gist out of the explanations and then pick up the feel by example. Well, actually, not necessarily in that order, since I don't use textbooks as source, so my first exposure to a grammar is seeing it used. Then I look it up (if it's not immediately apparent what it means), and see it used some more.

About the sentence splitting thing, just want to throw in that I almost always split question-answer exchanges unless both together are very short. I also split sentences that have a lot of unknown or for some reason difficult vocabulary, by clause. But, on the other hand, I also occasionally include fairly long sentences just because I like them and they only have a couple points I didn't know, or a bunch of related terms I'd like to learn together. For example, "同じ種類のコンビニなのに、近いお店には好きな商品がなくて、遠いお店に限ってあるのは何でだろう。。。" because there was very little I didn't know and I just liked how she said it, or the infamous "ただの人間には興味ありません。この中に宇宙人、未来人、異世界人、超能力者がいたら、あたしのところに来なさい。以上。" because of all the related terms that are pretty easy to remember.
Completely opposite, I frequently just add single word vocabulary cards when they don't come in a context and I'm too lazy to find one.
So...

I don't know anything about messing with anki, sorry.

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