Help with reading

[Javizy]

I was planning on buying some children's manga or books for some real-world examples of Japanese text. I realised I'd have major problems reading words that I don't know. I currently have a kanji reference book (Essential Kanji), and a Japanese-English furigana dictionary (kodansha's).

Perhaps someone could recommend a kanji dictionary, assuming they enable you to look up words like a regular dictionary (I've never actually seen one).

Also any other tips on gaining literacy would be much appreciated. I often forget compounds and the readings of characters that I should already know.

[jkeyz15]

many manga's such as your typical shounen type have furigana. Some manga's especially ones targeted to an older audience will have less.

[Belton]

Well to use a kanji dictionary you have to be able to count the strokes in a kanji and recognise it's radical (the basic components of a kanji) . It's not quite as easy as the dictionaries you are probably used to.

My advice would be to try a computer based dictionary first. If only because the searches are quicker. On the Mac I'd recommend JEDict found at http://jedict.com/
I have it running all the time!
It has a pretty good kanji dictionary search tool allowing you to search based on components and stroke count as well as a crude character recognition system that is a little hit and miss. Of course if you have a reading for a kanji you can just type that in.
I don't know any programs for the PC but there must be some good ones out there.

If you have a permanent internet connection this site is good and you can search for kanji by radicals
http://www.jisho.org/kanji/radicals/

In print I recommend Jack Halpern's Kondansha Kanji Learner’s Dictionary. It can be a bit expensive though at around £30 I think. (Amazon.uk has it at £19 at the moment) It also has it's own method of looking up kanji. The SKIP method. It's a pattern matching system instead of a radical index, that's meant to be easier for students not familiar with radicals. However as far as I know only this dictionary uses it. But that said it's a fairly quick way of searching for kanji. And it also has a traditional radical index if you want.
But although it's kanji listings are quite comprehensive it might not have as many compounds as a larger dictionary.

[Javizy]

Since I've used Heisig to learn the characters, I mostly know the radicals, but either way I'd be willing to learn. I read reviews for kodansha's kanji learners dictionary on Amazon, but somebody said it is more of a reference tool, and hardly has enough entries to be classed as a dictionary.

I'm not sure what that means, because "The Kanji Dictionary" that they have on there has well over 3000 characters or something, but I'm only looking to learn the standard 2000 or so. So what exactly is kodansha's one like?

On the topic of manga, I ordered the first five volumes of Death Note because I read (and I hope this is true) that it contains furigana. I ordered them on this site --http://global.yesasia.com/en/Japanese/Index.aspx for under £3 each, with free delivery on orders over £12 or so.

I'm getting tired of rereading PDF's to death, so I'm looking for some material to inspire me. I often read novels in English and can't wait to do the same in Japanese, although I don't doubt I've got a long wait before that happens

[Belton]

The Kodansha Learners Dictionary has all the Jouyou kanji and some more besides. As such it's good for learning about the individual kanji. Where it might be weak is in the combinations of kanji. ( but then I'm more used to electronic dictionaries where the problem sometimes is too many entries.)
For example, while you can look up the individual characters in 興味深い you might not find it as an entry under any of the kanji. (I've just checked actualy it is listed but only under 深)

The reviews on Amazon. --well I think I know the one you're talking about but that guy likes to use a Chinese dictionary to look up Japanese kanji so he's way beyond KKLD.

If you go here you can see example pages
http://www.kanji.org/kanji/dictionaries ... arners.htm

As you're in London go into the Japan Centre or the Basement of Mitsukoshi and have a look through the dictionaries to see what one you like if you're going to buy a paper dictionary. Both stores also have Japanese manga, although not as cheap as YesAsia. They are authentically shrink wrapped so you can't browse them. You can find (nonshrink-wrapped) childrens books in Mitsukoshi though.

Another place for Japanese books in London is Adanami Shobo on Brewer Street. A small shop full of cheap 2nd hand books. Again the manga are shrink wrapped and not current but they're cheap, and the nearest you'll get to Book Off outside Japan.

Japanese resturants around Picadilly often have free Japanese language papers if you want to try your hand at them. No furigana though.

[maxiewawa]

I've found there's a Doraemon series which helps a lot. It has the English translation above the Japanese. Mostly kana too.

[Javizy]

Thanks Belton, your replies are very helpful.

Wow, over 31,000 entries, the furigana version only has about 16,000. This is exactly what I'm looking for, seems well worth the £20 or so they are asking for it. I've still yet to buy the English-Japanese version of the furigana dictionary -- who would've thought looking up a word would be so complicated

Do any of those stores have a website? I don't know my way around central London too well, but I'm planning to go on Friday. I actually live on the outskirts

Anyway, I think I'll order Kodansha's kanji dictionary and study as much as I can in the four weeks or so it'll take Death Note to get here

[Jason]

I don't know any programs for the PC but there must be some good ones out there.

JQuickTrans

[Belton]

Do any of those stores have a website? I don't know my way around central London too well, but I'm planning to go on Friday. I actually live on the outskirts

Japan Centre does
http://www.japancentre.com/
(check out the food store in the basement too!)

I've put the stores on a google map

The Japan Centre is almost beside Piccadilly Circus Tube Station (southside Piccadilly exit). Mitsukoshi is nearby on lower Regent Street. Adanami Shobo is also close on Brewer Street in Soho. (next to NCP carpark)

Adamani Shobo is a bit strange and a photo might help
http://www.shiawase.co.uk/london/#adanami

[Javizy]

Thanks for the map. I went to the second-hand bookshop on Brewer Street and bought a book called ぼくは王さま. I didn't have as much time as I would have liked so I just grabbed a simple looking furigana book. There was quite a variety though, and the shopkeeper was friendly and quite cute, but I didn't risk trying out my Japanese

Like I thought, extra reading seems to be really beneficial. The book is about 10 years old though, and I remember reading that the language has changed a lot even in the past few years. Is this just in regards to kanji, slang, etc, or grammar as well?

There's a line that gets repeated about how the King likes his tamagoyaki that has me stumped, 'あまくってふーわりした、あったかいのがいいね'. The closest I can get is, 'sweet, softly/lightly done warm ones are nice', but if that is sweet I don't see why there's a って instead of a て, and is the ー just for emphasis or something completely different?

[Belton]

Yeah I'm a bit hesitant to try Japanese in those shops too! But arigatou gozaimasu never goes amiss.

I have 王さまのたんじょパーティ！

I wouldn't say writing has changed much. Kanji have been constant give or take some additions to the official jouyou kanji since the language reforms after the war.
(pre war some kanji were more complex and you were expected to know more of them. --Recently I was talking to someone whose education would have started before the reforms and it was interesting to see their handwriting and different kanji forms) Maybe people nowadays use less kanji when writing, but I think they can usually read them.
Grammar is also fairly constant. At worst what was previously ungrammatical is now accepted. But again with written forms I believe this happens more slowly. At any rate I wouldn't worry that you are learning old fashioned language.

Slang by it's very nature changes. How people speak changes but writing is fairly constant. Prehaps modern childrens books might be a bit different but the Japanese in a 10 year old book is just as valid I'd think.

あまくってふーわりした、あったかいのがいいね
The って　is another way of introducing a topic. It's a contraction of と言うのは (It was in Beginner S2 #34 recently.) I'm not sure why it's くって and not いって　though, so maybe I'm missing something. However I think くって sounds better.
I'd read the ー　as a spoken elongation of the vowel for effect and emphasis.
Altogether I'd read it as something like " say! sweet (omlettes ), flufーfy hot ones are good aren't they"
which is more or less the same as yours.

There are two ways of reading. extensive and intensive.
Extensive is how you'd read in your mother tongue. You don't use a dictionary and guess meaning from context and sometimes skim over stuff as long as you get the gist of it. The goal is quantity and good if not perfect understanding. ( a necessary skill when you can't look things up)

Intensive reading means you check constructions, look up words, take notes etc. It's not usually how you read though.

It's worth trying to do both. I read about one system that suggests extensive reading each day until you reach 10 unknown words. Then stop and review what you've read in an intensive manner. See if you can get further along each time before you stop extensive reading.

Another method of extensive reading is choosing texts that are very close to your reading level. (these are very hard to find at first)

But good luck! 頑張って〜♪
I think it can be a very good way to expand vocabulary and understanding.

--edit for spelling

[Javizy]

Interesting stuff, thanks for the reply.

Because my vocabulary is so limited, I've pretty much had to do intensive reading, although I can go the occasional line without picking up the dictionary, which is pleasing. I usually read a chapter like that, and then reread it extensive style.

It's quite hard work, but I've already learnt a ridiculous amount of words from the first 20 pages, as well as reviewing lots of grammar and stuff like asking for directions.