I51: Amanojaku

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

ある晴れた日、あまのじゃくは箱根の山のてっぺんに立って、まわりをグルリと見わたしていました。
Aru hareta hi, amanojaku wa hakone no yama no teppen ni tatte, mawari o gururi to miwatashite imashita.
One clear day, Amanojaku was standing on the top of Hakone Mountain and looking over the surroundings.

Why is "o" used here? What is the purpose of the "to" after "gururi"?

人間どもは箱根に尻(しり)を向けて富士ばかり見ておる。
Ningen domo wa hakone ni shiri ( shiri) o mukete fuji bakari mite oru.
People look only at Mt. Fuji, turning their back to Hakone mountain.

Is "domo" just like "tachi"?

それはなんと、富士山のてっぺんの岩を海へ投げすててしまい、その背たけを低くしてやろうというのです。
Sore wa nanto, fujisan no teppen no iwa o umi e nagesutete shimai, sono setake o hikuku shite yarō to iu no desu.
It was to throw rocks from the top of Mt. Fuji into the sea to make Mt. Fuji shorter.

The dictionary says "nanto" means, "what; how; whatever" but that doesn't fit here. What does it mean?

Is "~te yaru" here just for emphasis?

This is not a quote. It is a thought. Why is "to iu" used when "iu" means "to say"? If it means, "some people say that..." or "it is said that..." as a kind of narrator addition, would this clash with a line later in the text (unquoted in this post) that says, "to iu koto desu" - "koto" being a higher form of politeness than "no". Is this an inconsistent politeness level from the narrator?

そして、てっぺんの岩をつかむともっこに入れて、富士山を下り、海岸から海にめがけてなげこみました。
Soshite, teppen no iwa o tsukamu to mokko ni irete, fujisan o kudari, kaigan kara umi ni megakete nagekomimashita.
Then, he grabbed rocks on the top and put them into the mokko. He climbed down Mt. Fuji, and threw the rocks away from the shore into the sea.

"Ireru" is in the ~te form. "Kudaru" is in the ~masu stem form. Both of these forms mean the same thing. Why isn't it consistent? I.e. both of them in the ~te form or both of them in the ~masu stem form?

そして、なげそこなって近くに落ちたのが、「初島(はつしま)」になったということです。
soshite, nagesokonatte chikaku ni ochi tanoga,( hatsu shima( hatsushima)) ninattatoiukotodesu.
And, it is said that he failed to throw away one rock and dropped it into the sea near the shore, and that it became Hatsushima.

nage - from "nageru" (to throw away)
soko - that place
natte - from "naru" (to become)
ochita no ga - to have been falling

Am I misunderstanding any of those words? Because I don't understand the first part of this sentence whatsoever.

しかし、これだけの岩をとられても、富士山の背たけは、まだまだ日本一です。
Shikashi, koredake no iwa o torarete mo, fujisan no setake wa, madamada nippon'ichi desu.
But, even after so many rocks were taken away, Mt. Fuji was still the highest in Japan.

The dictionary says:

madamada - still some way to go before the goal; still more to come; much more; not yet

That doesn't make sense in this context. That would make it, "Mt. Fuji still had some way to go the best in Japan."

So, I'm guessing "madamada" can just mean "still" like "mada" does.

そして富士山を下りて箱根あたりを通りかかったところで、一番鳥が、「コケコッコー！」と、鳴きました。
Soshite fujisan o orite hakone atari o tōrikakatta tokoro de, ichi-ban dori ga, "kokekokkō!" to, nakimashita.
So, by the time he climbed down Mr. Fuji and walked around to Hakone, the first rooster crowed “cock-a-doodle-doo.”

Dictionary:

atari - on the bank of; by the side of (e.g. a river, pond)/(in the) neighbourhood; neighborhood; vicinity; nearby

So shouldn't this be "hakone no atari"?

"Dori" isn't in any dictionary I've seen. Can I add it to my vocabulary list or is it a typo where they meant to write "tori"?

さて、あまのじゃくですが、これにこりたのか、もう二度と富士山には行かなかったという事です。
Sate, Amanojaku desu ga, kore ni korita no ka, mo nido to fujisan ni wa ikanakatta to iu koto desu.
And so, it is said that Amanojaku will never go back to Mt. Fuji because he must have learned his lessons from this.

If this "no" is a nominaliser:

kore ni korita no (...) - From this learneding

It's completely different from English and nobody has ever explained to me how to nominalise in the past tense. As far as I'm aware, there's no lesson on it. I can't find a website to help me. Can anybody point me in the right direction?

Also, what is the "ka" here? I can't imagine how it can be an embedded question.

[mmmason8967]

Cherry-picking as usual...

人間どもは箱根に尻(しり)を向けて富士ばかり見ておる。
Ningen domo wa hakone ni shiri ( shiri) o mukete fuji bakari mite oru.
People look only at Mt. Fuji, turning their back to Hakone mountain.

Is "domo" just like "tachi"?

I think it's the same but with a bit of a condescending tone, a bit like "some people" or "certain people".

そして、てっぺんの岩をつかむともっこに入れて、富士山を下り、海岸から海にめがけてなげこみました。
Soshite, teppen no iwa o tsukamu to mokko ni irete, fujisan o kudari, kaigan kara umi ni megakete nagekomimashita.
Then, he grabbed rocks on the top and put them into the mokko. He climbed down Mt. Fuji, and threw the rocks away from the shore into the sea.

"Ireru" is in the ~te form. "Kudaru" is in the ~masu stem form. Both of these forms mean the same thing. Why isn't it consistent? I.e. both of them in the ~te form or both of them in the ~masu stem form?

I think it's to do with fujisan o kudari not being part of the main flow of the sentence and being there to account for the sudden change of location. Sort of like the out-of-sequence tense-change in this translation:-

He grabbed the rocks, put them in the mokko and having descended Mt Fuji, threw them in to the ocean.

そして、なげそこなって近くに落ちたのが、「初島(はつしま)」になったということです。
soshite, nagesokonatte chikaku ni ochi tanoga,( hatsu shima( hatsushima)) ninattatoiukotodesu.
And, it is said that he failed to throw away one rock and dropped it into the sea near the shore, and that it became Hatsushima.

nage - from "nageru" (to throw away)
soko - that place
natte - from "naru" (to become)
ochita no ga - to have been falling

Am I misunderstanding any of those words? Because I don't understand the first part of this sentence whatsoever.

I think it's like this:-

nage - from "nageru" (to throw away)
sokonatte - from sokunau (to fail in doing something)
ochita no - dropped item (nominalised)
ga - subject marker

So the subject of the sentence is "an un-thrown dropped thing".

しかし、これだけの岩をとられても、富士山の背たけは、まだまだ日本一です。
Shikashi, koredake no iwa o torarete mo, fujisan no setake wa, madamada nippon'ichi desu.
But, even after so many rocks were taken away, Mt. Fuji was still the highest in Japan.

The dictionary says:

madamada - still some way to go before the goal; still more to come; much more; not yet

That doesn't make sense in this context. That would make it, "Mt. Fuji still had some way to go the best in Japan."

So, I'm guessing "madamada" can just mean "still" like "mada" does.

I think it means "still" said twice--although "still still" sounds extremely awkward in English, of course. We'd probably say "was still and is still". Or perhaps "still remains".

そして富士山を下りて箱根あたりを通りかかったところで、一番鳥が、「コケコッコー！」と、鳴きました。
Soshite fujisan o orite hakone atari o tōrikakatta tokoro de, ichi-ban dori ga, "kokekokkō!" to, nakimashita.
So, by the time he climbed down Mr. Fuji and walked around to Hakone, the first rooster crowed “cock-a-doodle-doo.”

Dictionary:

atari - on the bank of; by the side of (e.g. a river, pond)/(in the) neighbourhood; neighborhood; vicinity; nearby

So shouldn't this be "hakone no atari"?

"Dori" isn't in any dictionary I've seen. Can I add it to my vocabulary list or is it a typo where they meant to write "tori"?

I think it's a typo. It might be a voicing like you get in "hitobito" or "mitsubishi" but I don't think voicing happens after "n", so the typo theory seems the better one.

さて、あまのじゃくですが、これにこりたのか、もう二度と富士山には行かなかったという事です。
Sate, Amanojaku desu ga, kore ni korita no ka, mo nido to fujisan ni wa ikanakatta to iu koto desu.
And so, it is said that Amanojaku will never go back to Mt. Fuji because he must have learned his lessons from this.

If this "no" is a nominaliser:

kore ni korita no (...) - From this learneding

It's completely different from English and nobody has ever explained to me how to nominalise in the past tense. As far as I'm aware, there's no lesson on it. I can't find a website to help me. Can anybody point me in the right direction?

Also, what is the "ka" here? I can't imagine how it can be an embedded question.

There's a page on Maggie Sensei's website that explains a lot of uses of no as a nominaliser, including past-tense verbs.

I think ka here denotes a small degree of uncertainty, something like "presumably".

マイケル

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

そして、なげそこなって近くに落ちたのが、「初島(はつしま)」になったということです。
soshite, nagesokonatte chikaku ni ochi tanoga,( hatsu shima( hatsushima)) ninattatoiukotodesu.
And, it is said that he failed to throw away one rock and dropped it into the sea near the shore, and that it became Hatsushima.

nage - from "nageru" (to throw away)
soko - that place
natte - from "naru" (to become)
ochita no ga - to have been falling

Am I misunderstanding any of those words? Because I don't understand the first part of this sentence whatsoever.

I think it's like this:-

nage - from "nageru" (to throw away)
sokonatte - from sokunau (to fail in doing something)
ochita no - dropped item (nominalised)
ga - subject marker

So the subject of the sentence is "an un-thrown dropped thing".

...and suddenly it all becomes clear. Thanks.

しかし、これだけの岩をとられても、富士山の背たけは、まだまだ日本一です。
Shikashi, koredake no iwa o torarete mo, fujisan no setake wa, madamada nippon'ichi desu.
But, even after so many rocks were taken away, Mt. Fuji was still the highest in Japan.

The dictionary says:

madamada - still some way to go before the goal; still more to come; much more; not yet

That doesn't make sense in this context. That would make it, "Mt. Fuji still had some way to go the best in Japan."

So, I'm guessing "madamada" can just mean "still" like "mada" does.

I think it means "still" said twice--although "still still" sounds extremely awkward in English, of course. We'd probably say "was still and is still". Or perhaps "still remains".

That had occurred to me too.

さて、あまのじゃくですが、これにこりたのか、もう二度と富士山には行かなかったという事です。
Sate, Amanojaku desu ga, kore ni korita no ka, mo nido to fujisan ni wa ikanakatta to iu koto desu.
And so, it is said that Amanojaku will never go back to Mt. Fuji because he must have learned his lessons from this.

If this "no" is a nominaliser:

kore ni korita no (...) - From this learneding

It's completely different from English and nobody has ever explained to me how to nominalise in the past tense. As far as I'm aware, there's no lesson on it. I can't find a website to help me. Can anybody point me in the right direction?

Also, what is the "ka" here? I can't imagine how it can be an embedded question.

There's a page on Maggie Sensei's website that explains a lot of uses of no as a nominaliser, including past-tense verbs.

Bookmarked. Ta.

One more little issue popped up in the final read-through today:

おう、今日はとおくの山までよく見えるのう。
Uumu, fuji wa yahari kirei na yama janō.
Well, of course, Mt. Fuji is beautiful!

"Ja" from "ja nai?"?
And "no" indicating a question?

Or is "janou" an actual word or expression in itself?

Yuki-sensei, if you reply to this thread, use romaji please.

[community.japanese]

マイケルさん、
どうもありがとうございます。

1. まわりをグルリと見わたす
Even though it has グルリ, the sentence structure is “something wo mwatasu”.
Gururi is additional information.
2. The meaning of domo is the same as tachi and more casual. It is sometimes used to people in lower position.
3. Nanto is emphasis.
4. yarou ia a volitional from (let’s) and comes from yaru which means “do”.
5. Someone had said “yarou” and narrator told readers it therefore “ioiu” is used.
6. No can be replaced with koto.
7. If the sentence isてっぺんの岩をつかむともっこに入れて、富士山を下して、海岸から海にめがけてなげこみました, it’s fine and both of them are verb stem, it’s ok, too.
8. Sokonau is a verb which means “spoil, ruin, miss, fail and so on”.
マイケルさんis correct.
nage - from "nageru" (to throw away)
sokonatte - from sokunau (to fail in doing something)
ochita no - dropped item (nominalised)
ga - subject marker
9. Mada means “still’. When it’s repeated twice, it’s emphasising.
10. Atari measn “around”. The correct grammar is “hakone no atari” however, particles are often omitted.
11. Actually a bird means “tori”. When something is put before the word, the pronunciation changes.
12. No is a nominaliser.
13. Nou is a final particle which shows “moving, touching impressive and so on”. The person is impressed by the beauty of the scenery.

Yuki 由紀
Team JapanesePod101.com