Grammar for counting the number.

[photoshopedison5462]

Hi all,
I learnt about counting the number in Japanese and have the question like following:


1. When I want to say the number of thing I see that there is two forms to use in JAPANESE. The first one is が . They use like りんごがろっこ ( six apples). The second form is の. They use like きゆうこのりんご (9 apples.).
Can I write in Japanese for 9 apples in the form of りんごがきゆうこ ? Can anybody tell me about the different of using が and の for this case and how to use it?

2.I am confused about how to use っ in counting the number. I noticed that for the number that the last syllable is ち , when they are used to count the number, it is changed to っ. For example, じゅういち (11) , when i say eleven flowers I have to write in the form of じゅういっぽんのはな . Can I wirte it to じゅういちぽんのはな ? or the other example that I doubt is for じゅう(10) when I want to say ten cups I have to write in じゅっいこのｶｯﾌﾟ. I doubt that why う is changed to っ ?
If all of this are the Grammar? Wolud you please explain me how to use it ?

Thanks
Edison

[aozoraway]

Hmm...I'm not a pro with numbers myself but I'll try my best.

Your problem number 1 was tougher for me. I think that both ways of saying it ( が and の) are correct. I remember reading about the difference (which is not necessarily a big one) but can't remember it right now. The book was Jay Rubin's Making sense of Japanese.

Okay, problem number 2. The small っused to double the consonant that comes after it. I don't know what your first language is so I don't know how much I should explain it (I'm Finnish and in my language the difference between long and short sounds is evident. It's quite similar to Japanese.) With numbers and counters, there are the specific forms that you just have to learn by heart. As far as I know, you can't writeじゅういちぽんのはな because the grammatical form is じゅういっぽん. The first way just...sounds wrong.

As for ten cups, I think it would be じゅういっこのカップ (but I might be wrong)

I'm terribly sorry I couldn't help any more! I hope someone who knows more than me will reply, too.

[QuackingShoe]

1: You mean きゅう, not きゆう. The small ゆ, ゅ, after き, means it's a kindof 'kyu' sound. This is something important to pay attention to.
Now for your actual question. They're just different things. You know the function of の, I assume. So if you say ろっこのりんご or whatever, you're just modifying りんご directly with the number of りんご you're talking about. Counting words are also used as adverbs, though. In your examples of things like りんごがろっこ, you're not saying enough of the phrase. This would finish with りんごがろっこある or the like, saying that six apples exist. ろっこ is modifying ある. There's no way to demonstrate this in English, because English doesn't work like this. Anyway, since りんごがろっこ is not some kind of set thing, and instead ろっこ is modify whatever verb, りんごをろっこかう (かう = buy) is, for example, also appropriate.

2: What you're talking about is euphonic change. No, you can't write じゅういちぽん. These changes are very set, and usually very predictable and logical within the system once you get used to it. Certain sounds in Japanese, such as ち and く, will, before certain other sounds, be replaced by a simple glottal stop represented by っ. For example, 学校 is written with two kanji pronounced がく and こう. However, together, they are read がっこう.
Similarly, it's common for many sounds to become voiced when preceded by certain other sounds. For example, ほ will become ぼ or ぽ in different circumstances.
So, in your いっぽん (or じゅういっぽん) example, it's 一本, which is いち, and ほん. Together, いち becomes いっ (due to the first rule) and ほん becomes ぽん (due to the second), resulting in いっぽん. They kindof act on each other simultaneously.
じゅっいこ is nothing, you mean じゅっこ. じゅう just does this. It doesn't fit into the larger pattern as far as I can see, but it's still consistent for じゅう.

So, that's probably all very confusing. But here's a convenient link for you in regards to counters specifically: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_c ... ic_changes

As you can see, most of the changes occur on the numbers 1, 3, 6, and 8.