31 grammar points in 31 days

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

I'm about 50%-75% done with kana. I haven't installed anything yet. More on that here.

Day 3 - LIS6L12 - Causative (again!)

"Watashi wa, ashita seifu ni jobbusentaa ni ikaseraremasu. Watashi wa shigoto o hoshikunai demo ikanakereba narimasen - okane ga moraimasen."
The government is making me go to the jobcentre tomorrow. I don't want a job but not going isn't acceptable - [if I don't go] I won't receive money.

"Tabun, watashi no koinu ni isshou ni ikasemasu."
Maybe I'll let my puppy go with me.

"Keisatsu wa, hitobito ni juu-hachi-sai toki o-sake o nomaseru"
The police let people drink alcohol when they're eighteen.

[mmmason8967]

Watashi wa, ashita seifu ni jobbusentaa ni ikaseraremasu.

Surely it's a jobbusentaa-plassu these days?

Watashi wa shigoto o hoshikunai demo ikanakereba narimasen - okane ga moraimasen.

It should be shigoto ga hoshikunai. Since hoshii can only refer to your own wishes, I think watashi wa is probably redundant. And you can't use demo in the middle of a sentence: you could start a new sentence, or you could replace demo with ga.

Keisatsu wa, hitobito ni juu-hachi-sai toki o-sake o nomaseru.

The age should be juu-hassai.

Otherwise this one looks OK to me (not that that's very much to go on). It raises an interesting question though: the police don't really have any say in whether or not a person over 18 drinks alcohol, so can you use the causative in this situation? I'm asking because I don't really know, although I feel that the "causer" in a causative sentence ought to be issuing an order or actively giving permission, which I don't think applies to the police in this case.

マイケル

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

Watashi wa shigoto o hoshikunai demo ikanakereba narimasen - okane ga moraimasen.

It should be shigoto ga hoshikunai. Since hoshii can only refer to your own wishes, I think watashi wa is probably redundant.

I edited my post several times to re-word the first sentence. It originally started with "seifu wa" so in the second sentence I wanted to establish the subject as "watashi." You're right though, since I made the change it's redundant. I just forgot to edit "watashi wa" out of the second sentence and replace "o" with "ga." My bad.

[thegooseking]

"Watashi wa, ashita seifu ni jobbusentaa ni ikaseraremasu. Watashi wa shigoto o hoshikunai demo ikanakereba narimasen - okane ga moraimasen."
The government is making me go to the jobcentre tomorrow. I don't want a job but not going isn't acceptable - [if I don't go] I won't receive money.

Not really sure about jobbusentaa as a katakana word. Japanese doesn't tend to like consonants that are both voiced and doubled (except p, of course), so in loanwords will often drop the voicing or the doubling (Fun Fact - a lot of Japanese people thought Batman was actually called Bad Man, because his name was transliterated as Battoman. Rather than assuming that 'batto' was from 'bat', people instead assumed that the voicing of the 'd' in 'bad' was dropped to retain the consonant doubling). Well, dropping the voicing here gives you a double-f, which I'm not even sure how you'd pronounce, so it's probably better to drop the doubling and get 'jobusentaa'.

"Keisatsu wa, hitobito ni juu-hachi-sai toki o-sake o nomaseru"
The police let people drink alcohol when they're eighteen.

I think the grammar's fine (apart from the juu-hassai thing マイケルさん already talked about), but I think this sounds a bit weird, like they let people drink alcohol when they're eighteen (and only then), as opposed to eighteen being the minimum.

You could say something like "Keisatsu wa, juu-hassai ni natta hito ni o-sake o nomaseru." - "Police let people who have become eighteen drink alcohol." (I changed hitobito to just hito because hitobito has a meaning more like 'everyone' and I'm not sure how that works with descriptive relative clauses like I've introduced, though it might be ok.) Though I'm not sure that really sounds natural either... Ideally I'd want to say something involving "at least eighteen", but my Japanese isn't that good

小狼

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

You're all very helpful so far but I miss Natsuko-sensei's expertise and certainty. I hope she comes back soon.

Day 4 - LIS6L11 - Suffering passive.

"Watashi wa, o-kaa-san ni shinshitsu o pinku ni irodorareta(?)"
My mother painted [my] room pink.

"Maikeru-san wa aru neko ni sakana o nusunde taberareta"
A certain cat stole Michael's fish and ate it.

"Irakujin no kuruma wa, Amerika no sensha ni utareta"
The American tank hit the Iraqi's car.

[thegooseking]

Day 4 - LIS6L11 - Suffering passive.

Well, I'm even less certain about this grammar point, but I'll give it a go.

"Watashi wa, o-kaa-san ni watashi no shinshitsu o pinku ni irodorareta(?)"
My mother painted my room pink.

Watashi wa, haha ni shinshitsu o pinku ni nurareta.
- This would be better, but I think your grammar is right.

"Irakujin no kuruma wa, Amerika no sensha ni utareta"
The American tank hit the Iraqi's car.

Nothing wrong with this grammatically, except it's not on the grammar point. This is the simple passive, not the indirect (or 'suffering') passive. This is, "The Iraqi's car was hit by the American tank" whereas the indirect passive would be more like:-

Irakujin wa, Amerika no sensha ni kuruma o utareta.
(The Iraqi had his car hit by the American tank.)

[Tracel]

You could say something like "Keisatsu wa, juu-hassai ni natta hito ni o-sake o nomaseru." - "Police let people who have become eighteen drink alcohol." (I changed hitobito to just hito because hitobito has a meaning more like 'everyone' and I'm not sure how that works with descriptive relative clauses like I've introduced, though it might be ok.) Though I'm not sure that really sounds natural either... Ideally I'd want to say something involving "at least eighteen", but my Japanese isn't that good

Andy's Sentence:

"Keisatsu wa, hitobito ni juu-hachi-sai toki o-sake o nomaseru"
The police let people drink alcohol when they're eighteen.

First, using the word toki requires a relative clause in front of it. That means that you need a verb or the particle no before it.　－－＞Juu-hassai no toki. or Juu-hassai ni natta toki.

One way to say 'at least' is with the adverb sukunakutomo:
警察は少なくとも十八歳になった人にお酒を飲ませる。
keisatsu wa sukunakutomo juu-hassai ni natta hito ni o-sake o nomaseru。
The police let people who are at least eighteen drink alcohol.

You probably can also use いじょう、Ijou.
警察は、十八歳以上の人にお酒を飲ませます。
Keisatsu wa, juu-hassai ijou no hito ni o-sake o nomasemasu.
The police let people that are no less than eighteen drink alcohol.

Hope this helps.
トラ

[Tracel]

You're all very helpful so far but I miss Natsuko-sensei's expertise and certainty. I hope she comes back soon.

I agree with you Andy; I miss Natsuko-sensei's input too. I think they are very busy with other stuff at the moment. I left a couple of posts on lessons last week and they only got to answering one of them today. They also send out homework to Premium Plus members, and every assignment needs to be answered by one of the group.

On to your sentences:

１．"Watashi wa, o-kaa-san ni shinshitsu o pinku ni irodorareta(?)"
My mother painted [my] room pink.

ーー＞One's own mother is haha. I just used 'my room' instead of 'bedroom'.　
母に私の部屋をピンクに塗られた。
Haha ni watashi no heya o pinku ni nurareta.
My room was painted pink by my mother, （And I am not happy with that)

２．"Maikeru-san wa aru neko ni sakana o nusunde taberareta"
A certain cat stole Michael's fish and ate it.

ーー＞ある猫にマイケルさんの魚を盗み出されて、食べられた。
Aru neko ni maikerusan no sakana wo nusumidasarete, taberareta.
Michael's fish was stolen and eaten by a certain cat.

３．"Irakujin no kuruma wa, Amerika no sensha ni utareta"
The American tank hit the Iraqi's car.

ーー＞My dictionary has the verb utareru listed as an intransitive verb meaning 'to be struck/beaten.　I am not sure what this means for your sentence though.　The passive here could be interpreted as either direct or 'affective passive', I think. The situation is obviously bad, but you could do what 小狼さん　said and change the roles a bit to make it clearly affective.

イラク人は自分の車をアメリカのせんしゃに打たれた。
Irakujin wa jibun no kuruma o amerika no sensha ni utareta.
The Iraqi had his car hit by an American tank. (the poor fellow).

Hopefully someone will come and check in on us soon to tell us what is right and what is wrong.

Cheers,
トラ

[thegooseking]

ーー＞My dictionary has the verb utareru listed as an untransitive verb meaning 'to be struck/beaten.　I am not sure what this means for your sentence though.　The passive here could be interpreted as either direct or 'affective passive', I think. The situation is obviously bad, but you could do what koookami said and change the roles a bit to make it clearly affective.

Utsu can mean "to strike/hit" or "to shoot/attack" (among other things). As long as it's in romaji it doesn't matter, though they do use different kanji (打つ for the former and 撃つ for the latter). Both are transitive - I would think the passive form of a verb would always be intransitive, though, wouldn't it?

小狼

[Tracel]

ーー＞My dictionary has the verb utareru listed as an intransitive verb meaning 'to be struck/beaten.　I am not sure what this means for your sentence though.　The passive here could be interpreted as either direct or 'affective passive', I think. The situation is obviously bad, but you could do what 小狼さん　said and change the roles a bit to make it clearly affective.

Utsu can mean "to strike/hit" or "to shoot/attack" (among other things). As long as it's in romaji it doesn't matter, though they do use different kanji (打つ for the former and 撃つ for the latter). Both are transitive - I would think the passive form of a verb would always be intransitive, though, wouldn't it?

This may be an odd case where the intransitive form and the passive are the same? I am pretty sure there would be a difference between how a passive form and an intransitive form would act in a sentence. Because they are separate cases, I don't think you can say that a passive tense is intransitive or transitive??? It is just passive.
I know that utsu is a transitive verb that, when you make it passive, would become utareru. But I looked up utareru as it is and it came up as an intransitive verb as well and not a passive form. （The dictionary gives me a choice of 4 different kanji btw.) In English such a verb would look passive because we don't really have an intransitive form for it.　To tell you the truth, I mix up Japanese passives and intransitives all the time. They are one of those things I find really different and confusing because they are not so easy to translate. It is one of the reasons that I try NOT to translate if I don't have to, but go with the Japanese flow. I may be completely out to lunch here but the following examples may show the difference.

Intransitive verbs utareru and hanareru:
車が打たれました。Kuruma ga utaremashita. The car was hit. (English is passive)
ボタンが離れました。Botan ga hanaremashita. The button was detached. (the button came off).
Passive using the transitive equivalents utsu and hanasu:
車は打たれました。Kuruma wa utaremashita. The car was hit.
ボタンは離されました。Botan wa hanasaremashita. The button was detached. (the button came off)

トラ

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

Interesting discussion.

Day 5 - LIS6L15 - Causative + kureru/morau

"Watashi wa ni-ju-hassai dakedo sensei ni shougakkou de benkyou sasete moraimashita."
I'm twenty eight but the teacher kindly allowed me to study at the elementary school.

"Ano nihonjin-tachi wa, watashi ni kaiwa o kikasete kureta."
Those Japanese people kindly let me listen to [their] conversation.

"Buchou wa shain ni hataraku no mae ni tabako o suwasete morau."
The department boss kindly lets the employees smoke before work.

[Tracel]

Hi Andy,
I can only see a mistake in sentence 3.

"Buchou wa shain ni hataraku no mae ni tabako o suwasete morau."
The department boss kindly lets the employees smoke before work.

Because you are using morau in this sentence, I think the particles ha and ni need to be switched.

部長に社員は働くの前にタバコを吸わせてもらいます。
Shain wa buchou ni hataraku no mae ni tabako wo suwasete moraimasu.
The department boss kindly lets the employees smoke before work.

Alternatively, you could use kureru at the end of your original sentence instead.

トラ

[thegooseking]

This may be an odd case where the intransitive form and the passive are the same? I am pretty sure there would be a difference between how a passive form and an intransitive form would act in a sentence. Because they are separate cases, I don't think you can say that a passive tense is intransitive or transitive??? It is just passive.
I know that utsu is a transitive verb that, when you make it passive, would become utareru. But I looked up utareru as it is and it came up as an intransitive verb as well and not a passive form. （The dictionary gives me a choice of 4 different kanji btw.) In English such a verb would look passive because we don't really have an intransitive form for it.　To tell you the truth, I mix up Japanese passives and intransitives all the time. They are one of those things I find really different and confusing because they are not so easy to translate. It is one of the reasons that I try NOT to translate if I don't have to, but go with the Japanese flow. I may be completely out to lunch here but the following examples may show the difference.

Intransitive verbs utareru and hanareru:
車が打たれました。Kuruma ga utaremashita. The car was hit. (English is passive)
ボタンが離れました。Botan ga hanaremashita. The button was detached. (the button came off).
Passive using the transitive equivalents utsu and hanasu:
車は打たれました。Kuruma wa utaremashita. The car was hit.
ボタンは離されました。Botan wa hanasaremashita. The button was detached. (the button came off)

トラ

Apparently hanareru isn't equivalent to the passive of hanasu. It is, in fact, the passive of hanaru, although it didn't conjugate to hanarareru because hanaru was an archaic verb that never became Godan - it was Nidan / Yodan (I guess this was pre-standardisation, so different people could have treated it as a different class of verb), and only its passive form survived into modernisation. At least, that's what seems to have happened. Probably the difference between hanaru and hanasu was so slight that the modernisers decided they only needed one of them, but that explains the morphology difference. (This is mostly speculation: my only real source is the entry for 離る on WWWJDIC and some very fuzzy knowledge about the modernisation/standardisation of the Japanese language. Then again, it's not like Japanese etymology hasn't seen speculation before )

But I thought intransitivity was a property, not a form, simply meaning that it doesn't take a direct object. So I would say you could say whether a passive verb is transitive or intransitive based on whether or not it takes a direct object. Passive verbs are sometimes preceded by something marked with an 'o' (like we've seen in the indirect passive or relating to emotions), but these don't seem like 'true' objects - though maybe I'm relying too much on the English sense of 'passive' to make that judgement.

What's interesting about utareru / utsu (again, using WWWJDIC as a source) is that it appears that although 打つ and 撃つ are different verbs, 打たれる can serve as the passive for 撃つ. So you can use 打たれる for "to be shot", even though you would have to use 撃つ for "to shoot". Maybe that's why the passive form qualifies as a verb in its own right - because it has a meaning beyond the passive form of 打つ (though the other meaning is still a passive form).

There's a lot of 'maybe' in this post, but isn't that what makes it fun?

小狼

[Tracel]

小狼さん、

What's interesting about utareru / utsu (again, using WWWJDIC as a source) is that it appears that although 打つ and 撃つ are different verbs, 打たれる can serve as the passive for 撃つ. So you can use 打たれる for "to be shot", even though you would have to use 撃つ for "to shoot". Maybe that's why the passive form qualifies as a verb in its own right - because it has a meaning beyond the passive form of 打つ (though the other meaning is still a passive form).

There's a lot of 'maybe' in this post, but isn't that what makes it fun?

Playing with languages is fun, isn't it? The information you gave is very interesting. I have studied the etymology of English and some German, but not Japanese. I am busy enough trying to be able to read modern Japanese fluently, which is a ways away . Then I want to delve into some of the old Japanese texts to study Shinto, Buddhism, and youkai. I think that you may be a bigger language junky than I am, which I didn't think was previously possible.

I find that the more I look up these rules, the more confused I get really. So I am going to go back to reviewing and studying my lessons and practicing all these lovely Japanese rules. That is not to say that I won't jump in if I think I can help with something. But I need to practice, practice, practice.

お元気で、
トラ

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

Hi Andy,
I can only see a mistake in sentence 3.

"Buchou wa shain ni hataraku no mae ni tabako o suwasete morau."
The department boss kindly lets the employees smoke before work.

Because you are using morau in this sentence, I think the particles ha and ni need to be switched.

部長に社員は働くの前にタバコを吸わせてもらいます。
Shain wa buchou ni hataraku no mae ni tabako wo suwasete moraimasu.
The department boss kindly lets the employees smoke before work.

Alternatively, you could use kureru at the end of your original sentence instead.

トラ

Silly mistake on my part. I know how to do those sentences, I just lost focus with the last one.

Day 6 - LIS6L10 - Passive

"Sono tatemono wa daikaijuu ni yakareta to iwareru."
That building was set on fire by a giant monster, people say.

"AKB48 no ichiban ninki uta wa Ono Erena ni yotte utawareta."
AKB48's most popular song was sung by Erena Ono.

"Seito wa wani ni tatakatte irareru! Taihen!"
The student is being attacked be the crocodile. Oh no!