Grammar Hodge Podge Practice Sentences

[Tracel]

Hi Everyone,

I thought I would start off a new thread, and invite anyone who wants to join to come and practice some grammar points with me. As I work my way through Japanesepod101, I will pick grammar points that I need to practice to understand them better, and make sentences with them. I am on the Lower Intermediate levels at the moment for review, and not many people seem to be asking questions for this level and up. I thought some others may want to practice at a bit more challenging level too. Feel free to practice the same points, or add new ones of your own. I am hoping that we will get some awesome input from Natsuko-sensei, or any other Japanese teachers too.

Grammar Point #1 - [Verb past +ところで]

[+ところ] is used to mean different things depending on where it is in the sentence, and of course the context. Because it is used a lot, I wanted to understand the different meanings more clearly by making practice sentences.

[Verb past +ところで] means: "Even if....." (main clause is almost always negative, and always counter factual-subjunctive case). This is a tricky one, so you may wish to look up the rule, because it only works in certain senses. I am not sure if I have used the right sense in all of these sentences either, so comment freely please. Next time, I won't babble on in English so much either.

１。一日中この宿題をしたところで、明日までに終えられません。
Even if I were to do this homework all day long, I wouldn't be able to finish it by tomorrow.

２。一週間何も食べなかったところで、十キロほどやせられないでしょう。
Even if you were to eat nothing for a week, you wouldn't be able to lose as much as ten kilos.

３。彼は料理の本を読んだところで、料理が全然うまくならないでしょう。
Even if he were to read a cookbook, he probably wouldn't become good at cooking.

４。晴れていたところで、彼は人が大勢いる場所が嫌いなので、行きませんでしょう。
Because he hates places with lots of people, he wouldn't go even if it were nice out.

５。自分の車を持っていたところで、その町には私的な乗り物が禁止だと思います。
Even if you were to have your own car, I think that private vehicles are forbidden in that town.

Next time I will pick a different way to use [+ところ] and practice that.

では,　頑張りましょう
トラ

[community.japanese]

トラさん、
thank you very much for this new productive thread!
And very well done with your practice

１。一日中この宿題をしたところで、明日までに終えられません。
Even if I were to do this homework all day long, I wouldn't be able to finish it by tomorrow.
↓
Very good!!　「明日までには」is also a possible way. In that case, the meaning is more like "someday I'd finish, but NOT by tomorrow" with certain emphasis.

２。一週間何も食べなかったところで、十キロほどやせられないでしょう。
Even if you were to eat nothing for a week, you wouldn't be able to lose as much as ten kilos.
↓
This sentence has much stronger "hypothesis" sense, so 一週間何も食べなかったとしても is more appropriate.
When we use ～ところで, this phothesis is rather possible to realise (i.e. passing 1 week without eating, in
this sentence). Also, the latter half has often a connotation of "giving up", irony" and/or criticism.
This is why the latter half often includes such expressions rather than normal expresions.
I'd suggest...
一週間何も食べなかったところで、十キロもやせられるわけがないでしょう。
一週間何も食べなかったところで、十キロやせれる保証はない。
Also, instead of 十キロほど, the particle も is appropriate because this も implies the attempt is absord
and/or certain surprise with unexpected number.

３。彼は料理の本を読んだところで、料理が全然うまくならないでしょう。
Even if he were to read a cookbook, he probably wouldn't become good at cooking.
↓
This is also very good!
I'd just suggest a bit of different wording:
料理の本を読んだところで、彼は全然うまくならないでしょう。
料理の本を読んだところで、料理はうまくなれない。
料理の本を読んだところで、料理がうまくなるわけがない。 (personally, this would be the
most probably if I was the one saying something like this)

４。晴れていたところで、彼は人が大勢いる場所が嫌いなので、行きませんでしょう。
Because he hates places with lots of people, he wouldn't go even if it were nice out.
↓
How about....
彼は、人の多い場所が嫌いなので、晴れたところで行かないでしょう。
In this specific sentence, 晴れたところで can be at the beginning of the sentence or in the middle as I wrote.
Considering the stronger connection, I'd connect it closer to 行かないでしょう because 彼は人の多い場所が嫌いなので
is a reason and 晴れたところで（彼は）行かないでしょう is the opinion.

５。自分の車を持っていたところで、その町には私的な乗り物が禁止だと思います。
Even if you were to have your own car, I think that private vehicles are forbidden in that town.
↓
This is tricky too...
Basically, Japanese sentence keeps the sentence topic influencing entire sentence. This makes the part which
the sentence topic doesn't have anything to do with sometimes does not sit well.
This is one of those cases. The main clause says "I think" and "even if you had a car" is not what "I think".
So, if you make these two in one sentence, it'd probably increase the sense of criticism or mocking.
My example would be...
自分の車を持っていたところで、その町では自家用車の使用は禁止されているから意味がありません。
(= There's no point owning a car because it's prohibited to use own car in that town.)
自分の車を持っていたところで、その町では自家用車の使用が禁止されているので乗れません。
(= Even if I have a car, I can drive because use of own car is forbidden in that town.)

Hope this helps! For further questions, anyone is welcome to follow this thread and ask us!

Natsuko (奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[Teabag]

Hello! Tracel さん、
I finally have some time tonight to join you here.
First of all, welcome back!

If I say I'm not either sad nor sorry to hear the decision you've made, you won't be mad with me, will you?
I do believe it was a tough decision to make. Good part is you got to make your own decision because you
knew exactly what you needed and wanted. I was thinking if I told my parents that school wasn't teaching
me what I needed when I was s freshman, what would they believe? Anyway, I think studying about 妖怪at
graduate school used to be in your bucket list. You've done/tried it! No regret to think about it 10 years from now .

Back to the topic.
Here is my sentence with Ｖ－たところで
I made this one for Natsuko 先生

お返事が少しぐらい遅れたところで大丈夫です。
It's OK even if the reply was a bit late.
I guess in this sentence ところで can be replaced by ても
お返事が少しぐらい遅れても大丈夫です。
Don't know why, but sounds like it.

Thanks for the interesting thread.

[community.japanese]

Teabag さん、

Back to the topic.
Here is my sentence with Ｖ－たところで
I made this one for Natsuko 先生

お返事が少しぐらい遅れたところで大丈夫です。
It's OK even if the reply was a bit late.
I guess in this sentence ところで can be replaced by ても
お返事が少しぐらい遅れても大丈夫です。
Don't know why, but sounds like it.

Thank you for the message!
You're right; it can be も instead of ところで
When we can make two very similar sentences with different expression, there must be some kind of
differences in meaning, right?
I'd probably write your sentence with ところで like
お返事が少しぐらい遅れたところで、全く問題ありません。

When we use ところで, we want to express that the part before ところで (in this case, the reply being late)
is not a big deal or it'd be nothing. So, the latter part often has certain emphasis expressions to
correspond. You've got a good sense of correct Japanese sentences and
お返事が少しぐらい遅れても大丈夫です。 is the perfect sentence.

Natsuko (奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[Tracel]

Teabagさん、

If I say I'm not either sad nor sorry to hear the decision you've made, you won't be mad with me, will you?　I do believe it was a tough decision to make. Good part is you got to make your own decision because you　knew exactly what you needed and wanted. I was thinking if I told my parents that school wasn't teaching　me what I needed when I was s freshman, what would they believe? Anyway, I think studying about 妖怪　at　graduate school used to be in your bucket list. You've done/tried it! No regret to think about it 10 years from now

全然怒ってないですよ。Teabagさんと言った通りで、私は自分のことが決められるなんて、いいですね。してみたことがよかったけれど、今の私に大学をやめるのは一番いい決定でした。そのうえ、妖怪についていつでも自分で読むことができます 。Teabagさんは大学生ですか。何を勉強していますか。

Teabagさんは私と一緒に日本語の文法を練習してくださってありがとうございます。頑張れましょうね。

トラ

[Tracel]

奈津子先生、

私の文書を直してくださってありがとうございます。おかげさまで助かりました。

一週間何も食べなかったところで、十キロほどやせられないでしょう。
Even if you were to eat nothing for a week, you wouldn't be able to lose as much as ten kilos.
↓
This sentence has much stronger "hypothesis" sense, so 一週間何も食べなかったとしても is more appropriate.

●“Even if….”という用語は、日本語に訳すのが難しいみたいですね。いろいろな表現があるようです。「ても」、「けれど」、「のに」、「としても」、「にしても」、「にしろ」などの表現の全部は英語の「Even if or even though」に訳すことができますね。

●次の文書に「わけ」という表現をつかいましたね。「わけ」も英語に表現するのは難しいでしょう。たぶん来週この言葉を練習しようと思います。

１．一週間何も食べなかったところで、十キロもやせられるわけがないでしょう。
２．料理の本を読んだところで、料理がうまくなるわけがない。 (Personally, this would be the
most probably if I was the one saying something like this)

自分の車を持っていたところで、その町には私的な乗り物が禁止だと思います。
Even if you were to have your own car, I think that private vehicles are forbidden in that town.
↓
This is one of those cases. The main clause says "I think" and "even if you had a car" is not what "I think".　So, if you make these two in one sentence, it'd probably increase the sense of criticism or mocking.
My example would be...
自分の車を持っていたところで、その町では自家用車の使用は禁止されているから意味がありません。
(= There's no point owning a car because it's prohibited to use own car in that town.)

●なるほど、奈津子先生の文書のほうがクリアーですね。「と思います」と言いすぎるのは、私にとって悪習になってしまいました。

Thanks again for the awesome advice.

トラ

[Tracel]

The second set of 「ところ」 expressions.

★「ところで…」＃２．Interjection: The speaker is going to talk about something else.

１． ところで、ドイツ語について質問があります。
By the way, I have a question about German.
２． ところで、上田さんに対しての噂を聞きましたか。結婚するつもりですよ。
By the way, did you hear about the rumor concerning Mr. Ueda? He intends to get married.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
★　「…ところだ」＃１．…A place is in a location which takes a certain amount of time to get to.

１． １．私の大学は家から車で一時間十五分のところです。
By car, my university is one hour and fifteen minutes away from home.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
★　「…ところだ」＃２．This one needs a bit more work. Depending on the tense of the verb, it can mean:

a. Just about to do something
b. Be in the midst of doing something
c. Have just done something
d. Have been doing something
e. Almost did something

１．夫はお風呂に入るところです。
My husband is just about to get into the bath.

２．私もその本を読んでいるところです。
I am also in the midst of reading that book.

３．夫は出かけたところです。
My husband has just gone out.

４．息子は明日の日本語の試験のため、勉強していたところです。
My son has just been studying for his Japanese test tomorrow.

５．息子は皿を落とすところで、友だちの快速のおかげで助かりました。
My son almost dropped the plate, but was saved by his friend’s nimbleness.
================================================================

さて、「ところ」について、まだもう少しを練習しなきゃなりません。次回してみましょうか。
どうぞよろしくおねがいします。

トラ

[community.japanese]

トラセルさん、
お役に立てて嬉しいです
「・・・わけがない」は、よく使う便利な表現ですから、今度練習のテーマにするのはいい考えですね！
「絶対に無理」とか「ありえない」、「起こり得ない」という時に使います。

The second set of 「ところ」 expressions.

I just loved this face mark you put
It shows your struggle really well.

★　「…ところだ」＃２．This one needs a bit more work. Depending on the tense of the verb, it can mean:
a. Just about to do something
b. Be in the midst of doing something
c. Have just done something
d. Have been doing something
e. Almost did something

１．夫はお風呂に入るところです。
My husband is just about to get into the bath.

２．私もその本を読んでいるところです。
I am also in the midst of reading that book.

３．夫は出かけたところです。
My husband has just gone out.

４．息子は明日の日本語の試験のため、勉強していたところです。
My son has just been studying for his Japanese test tomorrow.

５．息子は皿を落とすところで、友だちの快速のおかげで助かりました。
My son almost dropped the plate, but was saved by his friend’s nimbleness.

Wow, very well done!
This ところ is often very problematic for Japanese learners, but it seems you've got it all very right
I'd recommend some correction in the sentence 5:
息子は皿を落とすところでしたが、友達が素早く反応してくれたので大丈夫でした。
This is a lot different from the English sentence, but this would probably sound more natural.
The word "numbleness" is very difficult to translate literally
The key here would be が: the son was to drop the plate, "but" he didn't thanks to his mate, right?
In this case, が makes the sentence sound more natural.

Natsuko (奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[Teabag]

そのうえ、妖怪についていつでも自分で読むことができます 。Teabagさんは大学生ですか。何を勉強していますか。

Teabagさんは私と一緒に日本語の文法を練習してくださってありがとうございます。頑張れましょうね。
トラ

Tracelさん、
こんばんは。
その通りです。
やる気があったら、何も自分で習うと思いますね。でも、言語を学ぶなら（特に日本語 ）、先生と一緒に勉強した方がいいです。
Teabagは十年前学生だったんが、今、社会人です。今まで、一番悔しいことは日本語がぺらぺら話せませんです。けれど、ＪＰＯＤの皆と日本語が勉強できるのは幸せです。

これから、妖怪に関するクイズですよ。これは誰ですか。

[mewes6190]

Tora-san,

this thread is really helpful, since ところ isn't easy... I would need to do this with よう someday...

[Tracel]

Teabagさん、

でも、言語を学ぶなら（特に日本語 ）、先生と一緒に勉強した方がいいです。
Teabagは十年前学生だったんが、今、社会人です。今まで、一番悔しいことは日本語がぺらぺら話せませんです。けれど、ＪＰＯＤの皆と日本語が勉強できるのは幸せです。

私も前に勉強していた日本語がペラペラ話せるようにならなくて、後悔します。大学に戻る一番大切な理由は、先生の授業で日本語を勉強するわけなんでした。でも、今から前向きな立場から生活を過ごしたいので、このままでＪＰＯＤの皆と日本語の勉強は最高です。一生懸命、楽しい方法に学びたいです。

これから、妖怪に関するクイズですよ。これは誰ですか

HaHa. その妖怪は「かおなし」というようかいでしょう。

では、
トラ

[Tracel]

くろくまさん、

this thread is really helpful, since ところ isn't easy... I would need to do this with よう someday...

私たちと一緒に参加してくださいませんか。どうぞ、自分の文書を書いてみてください。いい練習になりますよ。(よう)という言葉も、日本語でいろいろなところに使われていますね。「わけ」の練習のあとで、「よう」とともに文章を作りましょうか。

Won't you participate with us? Please try and write your own sentences。It's good practice. The word 「よう」Is also used in various ways in Japanese, isn't it. Shall we make some sentences using 「よう」　after practicing 「わけ」？

トラ

[Tracel]

奈津子先生、

今回も有難うございます。

I'd recommend some correction in the sentence 5:
息子は皿を落とすところでしたが、友達が素早く反応してくれたので大丈夫でした。
This is a lot different from the English sentence, but this would probably sound more natural.
The word "nimbleness" is very difficult to translate literally
The key here would be が: the son was to drop the plate, "but" he didn't thanks to his mate, right?
In this case, が makes the sentence sound more natural.

英語の翻訳に「But」があるのに、私の日本語の文書に「が」忘れてしまいました。 OOPS

ところで、英語で「Nimbleness」という言葉もちょっと変な言い方だと思います。実は、「Quick reflexes」か「Quick wits」の意味がある日本語の言葉を使いたかったが、辞書で見つかれませんでした。イディオム(慣用語区)がどんな言語にあるも,同じ意味をあらわすために、文化によって全然違う言葉を使いますね。だから、イディオムを辞書に引くのが難しいです。

トラ

[mewes6190]

くろくまさん、

this thread is really helpful, since ところ isn't easy... I would need to do this with よう someday...

私たちと一緒に参加してくださいませんか。どうぞ、自分の文書を書いてみてください。いい練習になりますよ。(よう)という言葉も、日本語でいろいろなところに使われていますね。「わけ」の練習のあとで、「よう」とともに文章を作りましょうか。

Won't you participate with us? Please try and write your own sentences。It's good practice. The word 「よう」Is also used in various ways in Japanese, isn't it. Shall we make some sentences using 「よう」　after practicing 「わけ」？

トラ

Ah, I would love that, just missing the time at the moment. I'm sooo booked until the holidays already, that I hardly find my daily 10-20 minutes for vocab-training! (Which is coming forward! Just had to look up 4 words in your japanese writing up there! )
But I'll participate as soon as I get some time, it really IS a good training. Until then, I'm restrained to reading; writing at the moment just takes too much time. (I still have to look up EVERY sentence pattern and vocabulary and still sound like I'm doing a literally translation from German into Japanese... )

So, keep on your training, I'm always reading as much as I can, and will take part as soon as I got the time!

Best
Kurokuma

[community.japanese]

Teabag さん、くろくまさん、トラさん、
wow this thread is active! Thank you!

I couldn't see any image of ようかい teabag-san posted
(I wondered if it was picture of me... )
But I believe トラさん has got the correct answer anyway.

くろくまさん、ぜひ「よう」を使って練習してください
Questions are also welcome as always!

トラさん、I know; sometimes idioms and phrases are difficult to translate only using
the dictionaries. Some good dictionaries have example sentences with natural language
(in my case, when I look it up to get natural English way, for example).
By the way, I love your collection of face marks

Cheers!

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com