Practice

[rupenpatel702727]

Can we make a thread where beginners can post, and some higher ranking member correct us if we're wrong? It would save people making a thread every time they want someone to check something.

I'll start:

だいどころに犬がいますでもわたしがきらいです

Trying to say: There's a dog in the kitchen but I hate them!

Thanks!

[mmmason8967]

だいどころに犬がいますでもわたしがきらいです

きらい is a na-adjective, not a verb. Because it is an adjective, the thing that is disliked/hated is marked with が (not the person who does the disliking). The sentence structure is the same with きらい as it would be if you used another na-adjective such as きれい (beautiful).

いぬがきれいです。　⇒　Dogs are beautiful
いぬがきらいです。　⇒　Dogs are hateful (but will always be translated as "I hate dogs")
いぬがすきです。　　⇒　Dogs are lovely (but will always be translated as "I like dogs")

マイケル

[rupenpatel702727]

so we can't say

watashi ga kirai desu?

To say I hate dogs it's watashi wa inu ga kirai desu

but how do I say i hate them?

[Teabag]

だいどころに犬がいますでもわたしがきらいです

Trying to say: There's a dog in the kitchen but I hate them!

Hi,
I find the original sentence not clear enough to understand.
Do you hate "the dog" or the fact that "the dog's in the kitchen?"

According to what you just wrote to マイケルさん, I will go with the first option.

台所に犬がいます。でも、(私は)犬がきらいです。

I understand you hope to use third person plural pronoun in your sentence here.
For that you need to wait for teacher Natsuko's answer. Since "かれら" refers to people,
I'm sure it's not acceptable in this case.

Happy studies!

[mewes6190]

but how do I say i hate them?

I would say, by making them the sentence topic. Something like: 犬は台所にいます。でも、(犬が)きらいです。
But I'm kinda guessing here...

It's sometimes tricky, to create and follow the topic of a sentence. As I understand it, if you create a topic with は, that topic stays the topic up until the next は.

But don't take me by my word, I'm still learning myself, maybe 奈津子先生can clear that up?!?

頑張ってください！
くろくま

[mmmason8967]

I would say, by making them the sentence topic. Something like: 犬は台所にいます。でも、(犬が)きらいです。 But I'm kinda guessing here...

It's sometimes tricky, to create and follow the topic of a sentence. As I understand it, if you create a topic with は, that topic stays the topic up until the next は.

In addition, I think that the topic marked by は is something that is known to both the speaker and the listener. This means that the dog mentioned in the first sentence must already be known to the speaker and listener, so 「犬は台所にいます」 means something like "The dog is in the kitchen" (rather than "A dog is in the kitchen").

The idea is easy to grasp if we look at fairy stories. I start off with "Once upon a time there was an old man." It has to be an old man because you haven't met him before. In Japanese I'd start off with 「むかしむかしおじいさんがすんでいました。」 and it has to be が for the same reason. Now that I've introduced him, I can continue with "The old man... (etc)". And in Japanese I'd continue with 「おじいさんは。。。」 and again that's because I've introduced him and we now both know about him.

Where was I? Oh, yes ... if the first sentence means "the dog is in the kitchen", that creates a problem in the second sentence because the second sentence is about dogs in general, not the specific dog that's in the kitchen. I'm not at all sure how to get around the problem.

but how do I say i hate them?

That's a good question. Japanese doesn't really have pronouns; there are some pronoun-y words like watashi, kore and so on, but it doesn't really have equivalents for the "he", "she", "it" and "them" that crop up constantly in English sentences. Japanese verbs already contain the information that is provided by pronouns in English. A Japanese verb, for example, is either transitive or intransitive; if it's transitive, then it has an object and if the object isn't explicitly mentioned, you'll need to insert "it" or "him" or "her" or "them" when you translate it into English. Let's look at the following sentence...

きらいです。

...which means "<somebody> hates <something>". Unless there's a good reason to think otherwise, the person who's doing the hating will be the speaker, so the sentence means "I hate <something>". The "something" should hopefully be clear from context -- in English, if I said "I hate them", you still need to know who "them" are from context, so it's not really any clearer just because it's got a pronoun.

I think the problem is (as described above) that you want to say "I hate them" but what "them" means isn't clear from the context (in either English or Japanese); you want it to mean dogs in general, but you haven't previously mentioned dogs in general, only one specific dog that's occupying the kitchen.

マイケル

[mewes6190]

I would say, by making them the sentence topic. Something like: 犬は台所にいます。でも、(犬が)きらいです。 But I'm kinda guessing here...

It's sometimes tricky, to create and follow the topic of a sentence. As I understand it, if you create a topic with は, that topic stays the topic up until the next は.

In addition, I think that the topic marked by は is something that is known to both the speaker and the listener. This means that the dog mentioned in the first sentence must already be known to the speaker and listener, so 「犬は台所にいます」 means something like "The dog is in the kitchen" (rather than "A dog is in the

I guess you're right, I forgot that. But still, if two people start a discussion, the first topic is usually marked by は, so both know, what the discussion actually is about, isn't it?
If I walk up to a stranger and ask him something, I have to tell him, by using は. Like: すみません、駅はどこですか。At least that's how the textbooks teach it. I would see a が as possible here, but for me, still having the textbook-japanese in my "ear", it would "sound" strange.
I would think of that as another addition.

Where was I? Oh, yes ... if the first sentence means "the dog is in the kitchen", that creates a problem in the second sentence because the second sentence is about dogs in general, not the specific dog that's in the kitchen. I'm not at all sure how to get around the problem.

I think the problem is (as described above) that you want to say "I hate them" but what "them" means isn't clear from the context (in either English or Japanese); you want it to mean dogs in general, but you haven't previously mentioned dogs in general, only one specific dog that's occupying the kitchen.

マイケル

You're right, that's what's been bothering me all the time. The sentence goes from specific to general without transition. You usually would say in english: "There's a dog in the kitchen, but I hate dogs."
So, I would suggest, to reverse the order, from general to specific:

わたしは犬がきらいです。でも、台所にいます。
I hate dogs, but there's one in the kitchen.

The whole sentence has a bigger problem with what it wants to say, than with how... :/

くろくま

[mmmason8967]

If I walk up to a stranger and ask him something, I have to tell him, by using は. Like: すみません、駅はどこですか。At least that's how the textbooks teach it. I would see a が as possible here, but for me, still having the textbook-japanese in my "ear", it would "sound" strange.

Good point. I'm sure that は is correct but I suspect that if you walk up to a stranger, the things that can appear in the initial wa-phrase are restricted: you can ask 「えき は どこ です か」 but I don't think you could say 「わたしの いぬ は どこ です か」 because you'd expect a stranger to know about the railway station but you wouldn't expect them to know anything about your dog. If you need to ask about your dog, you'd probably need a "Once Upon a Time" 「むかしむかし」 phrase to set the scene before you ask your question: "My dog has run off. Have you seen a dog?"

You're right, that's what's been bothering me all the time. The sentence goes from specific to general without transition. You usually would say in english: "There's a dog in the kitchen, but I hate dogs."
So, I would suggest, to reverse the order, from general to specific:

わたしは犬がきらいです。でも、台所にいます。
I hate dogs, but there's one in the kitchen.

I think the problem might be the "but". When you use "but" the sentence tends to be:-
either <general-statement> BUT <specific-exception>: I like movies but I don't like horror movies.
or else <specific-statement> BUT <contrasting-statement>: My wife loves cats but I detest them.

So I don't think "but" belongs in the original example. I think you'd say "There's a dog in the kitchen. I hate dogs!":-
台所には犬がいます。犬がきらいです。
だいどころ　に　は　いぬ　が　います。　いぬ　が　きらい　です。
daidokoro ni wa inu ga imasu. inu ga kirai desu.

For an example sentence that includes "them" (which I think is maybe what rupenpatel702727さん wanted), I''ll use "My wife loves cats but I hate them":-

妻は猫がすきですが、私はきらいです。
つま　は　ねこ　が　すき　です　が、　わたし　は　きらい　です。
Tsuma wa neko ga suki desu ga watashi wa kirai desu.

Alternatively you can do it as two sentences:-
妻は猫がすきです。でも私はきらいです。
つま　は　ねこ　が　すき　です。　でも　わたし　は　きらい　です。
Tsuma wa neko ga suki desu. Demo watashi wa kirai desu.

rupenpatel702727さん, there is no "them" in the Japanese sentence. When you translate watashi wa kirai desu into English, you have to insert a pronoun and, since the thing that's hated is obviously "cats", you'd choose "them".

Also, when you use demo for "but", you must start a new sentence. If you want a sentence with "but" in the middle, use ga and a comma.

マイケル

[mewes6190]

If I walk up to a stranger and ask him something, I have to tell him, by using は. Like: すみません、駅はどこですか。At least that's how the textbooks teach it. I would see a が as possible here, but for me, still having the textbook-japanese in my "ear", it would "sound" strange.

Good point. I'm sure that は is correct but I suspect that if you walk up to a stranger, the things that can appear in the initial wa-phrase are restricted: you can ask 「えき は どこ です か」 but I don't think you could say 「わたしの いぬ は どこ です か」 because you'd expect a stranger to know about the railway station but you wouldn't expect them to know anything about your dog. If you need to ask about your dog, you'd probably need a "Once Upon a Time" 「むかしむかし」 phrase to set the scene before you ask your question: "My dog has run off. Have you seen a dog?"

Good point yourself!
I'm thinking about that point for some time now. Theoretically I think it possible. If you see a guy running up the street, looking frantically around, and he stops in front of you and says: "Where's my dog?" you would understand him, wouldn't you?
But that's theoretical stuff. In general I agree. Maybe you would ask more along the line of: 私の犬を見ましたか。 - have you seen my dog?, but that's not a は sentence.
Long story short: I agree, that the topics you can start by は with strangers is restricted, but I guess there might be contextual exceptions... (I generally advise against generalizations! )

@rupenpatel:

Michael-san is right, you can't always translate from or to english word by word, because japanese is so compact and short, that many words we use (and need) in other languages simply fall over the edge or don't even exist...
I'm still struggling with that myself a lot, especially when translating TO japanese.

くろくま

[community.japanese]

rupenpatel702727-san, マイケルsan, Teabag-san, くろくまsan,
こんにちは
Thank you very much for another active thread here!

台所に犬がいます。でも、(私は)犬がきらいです。

I thought this was the perfect sentence for the original meaning.
To start with, you can state that there's a dog in the kitchen: 台所に犬がいます。
This sentence gives you the information that there's a DOG
Then continue that you actually don't like dogs with でも、（私は）犬がきらいです。
The reason for this sentence type is...↓

.... so 「犬は台所にいます」 means something like "The dog is in the kitchen" (rather than "A dog is in the kitchen").

Perfect!
If you are already talking about "the dog" and wondering where the dog is, the perfect answer is
犬は台所にいます。

Natsuko (奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com

[rupenpatel702727]

Thanks everyone for helping me

Could I please ask for more help?

I'm confused with descriptions,

On Newbie S3 E13, we talk about descriptions, so:
目がきれい人です

こえがしずかな人です
　　and so on.

But how would you say I have a quiet voice?

I thought it was: 私はこえがしずかです

(watashi wa koe ga shizuka desu

But then I realized that desu means "to be" and so the above sentence probably means I am quiet voice, at least according to google translator

So would the correct sentence be:

私はしずかなこえをもちます?
(watashi wa shizuka na koe o mochimasu)

Or are they both wrong?

Help is much appreciated!

[mmmason8967]

Could I please ask for more help?

Please do! Trying to answer questions is always interesting because it makes you think a bit and check that your own understanding makes sense.

But how would you say I have a quiet voice?
I thought it was: 私はこえがしずかです
watashi wa koe ga shizuka desu

That's correct. At least, I think so.　

But then I realized that desu means "to be" and so the above sentence probably means I am quiet voice, at least according to google translator

Google Translate is obviously getting confused by the topic-marker wa. Don't let it confuse you too!　

The important thing about wa is that it marks the topic of the sentence but it does not mark the subject of the verb. Japanese doesn't have pronouns; when we translate from Japanese into English we very often need to insert an appropriate pronoun for the verb subject -- he, she, me, you, his, her, my or whatever. We'll often find that the Japanese wa phrase helps us to decide on the right pronoun, and it's easy to start thinking that the wa phrase is that pronoun. But it isn't.

The wa phrase just says what topic you're speaking on. It isn't connected to the verb that comes later. In fact, you can split the sentence at the word wa and everything that comes afterwards still makes complete sense. It might be a bit ambiguous, though; the purpose of the topic in the wa phrase is to remove that ambiguity. If we split your sentence we get:-

watashi wa ................. As for me,
koe ga shizuka desu ...... voice is quiet

The second phrase is complete, and the subject of the verb is koe (voice). To translate it into natural English I need to know whose voice you're talking about: the answer is in the topic watashi wa, which tells me that the pronoun I need is "my" and so the natural English translation is "my voice is quiet". But the subject of the verb is "my voice", not watashi because watashi is the topic, and the topic is not the subject of the verb.

マイケル

[rupenpatel702727]

ありがとう　

What about the second phrase? Was that alright?

I have a quick question about tenses.

私はともだちのうちにとまります

(watashi wa tomodachi no uchi ni tomarimasu)

I think this means i am staying at a friends house. But can it mean "I am going to stay at my friends house" and "I will stay at my friends house?"

Also, if I wanted to say "I am staying at my friends house" would it be (watashi no tomodachi no uchi ni tomarimasu)?

Thanks

[mewes6190]

I have a quick question about tenses.

私はともだちのうちにとまります

(watashi wa tomodachi no uchi ni tomarimasu)

I think this means i am staying at a friends house. But can it mean "I am going to stay at my friends house" and "I will stay at my friends house?"

Also, if I wanted to say "I am staying at my friends house" would it be (watashi no tomodachi no uchi ni tomarimasu)?

Thanks

Hello Rubenpatel-san,

Here I would like to give my thoughts. (As Michael-san said, it's a good training. )
I think, 私はともだちのうちにとまります can only mean: "I will stay at my friends house."
Staying overnight at a place is an ongoing process which keeps ongoing while making that statement. So, for my understanding, if you're staying at your friends house at the moment of your statement, it should be 私はともだちのうちにとまっています。

The form of te-Form + imasu is used, when some state or action is still ongoing, as far as I understand it.

Of course I might be totally wrong about this, maybe the others have a better answer.

Greetings
Kurokuma

[mmmason8967]

I think, 私はともだちのうちにとまります can only mean: "I will stay at my friends house."

I agree: the non-past tense, as I understand it, is used for either habitual actions or for the future. I think it's probably obvious from context which it is. 「私はともだちのうちにとまります」 definitely sounds like the future rather than a habitual thing.

It just occurred to me that it doesn't apply to imasu, arimasu or desu. The non-past of these verbs doesn't describe a habitual action or the future: it describes an ongoing state or action. The phrase in the original question was 「だいどころに犬がいます」, which means "There is a dog in the kitchen". It doesn't mean that the dog is habitually in the kitchen, and it doesn't mean the dog will be in the kitchen. Which I guess helps to explain the next grammar item:-

The form of te-Form + imasu is used, when some state or action is still ongoing, as far as I understand it.

Yes, I understand it the same way: something that's currently happening or some long-term, ongoing situation:-

テレビを見ていあます　⇒　I am watching television
terebi wo mite imasu

結婚しています　⇒　I am married.
kekkon shite imasu

What about the second phrase? Was that alright?

I was trying to avoid it, to be honest!

「私はしずかなこえをもちます」 sounds plausible to me, but I have a feeling that it isn't right. To me, mochimasu suggests that you have something, but to me it feels like you have it because you brought it with you, if you see what I mean. And I think you'd use the ~te imasu form we were talking about above (i.e. motte):-

タバコを持っています。
Tabako wo motte imasu.

I think this means "I have some cigarettes" in the sense of "I have cigarettes with me" or "I brought some cigarettes with me". I don't think the sense in which you can "have" a pack of cigarettes is the same as the sense in which you can "have" a quiet voice. However, this is just my impression--I'm definitely not speaking from a position of knowledge!

マイケル