Vocabulary first, then dialogue?

[Charles]

I was wondering if, perhaps as an experiment, you could try doing the vocabulary first for one lesson, then have the dialogue.

Right now, when I listen to the dialogue, I immediately feel that I am at the loss to know what to listen for. I already feel safe assuming that I'm not going to understand the whole thing, so I give up on trying to understand it and struggle to just listen through the yukkuri (slowing down words when you don't know their meaning does not make them more understandable), until I hear the vocabulary and grammar sections.

If these sections came before the dialogue, then perhaps the words would stand out more when we heard them in the following dialogue?

Just a thought. It might spark a lot of feedback. :)

[Jason]

It's like I know already know beforehand that I'm not going to understand the whole thing, so I kind of give up and struggle to just listen through the yukkuri (slowing down words you don't know does not make them any more understandable!), until I hear the vocabulary and grammar sections.

Well, that's kinda the whole point. Putting the vocab and grammar at the end forces you to just listen to the dialog without trying to analyze it. It's very important to just get used to the sounds of a conversation in addition to understanding the meaning. If they put the vocab and grammar first, everybody would be trying to analyze and understand everything and not just listening and absorbing.

[tarokun]

Actually, before I play a new lesson, I would first go through the lesson's PDF and study the new vocabulary. Often, I would also try to read through the dialog to pick up any new grammatical structure too.

Only afterward do I listen to the mp3.

Different people study differently. I'm a math dude, and I like my definitions before the theorems. So, to me this method works better.

[Bueller_007]

Actually, before I play a new lesson, I would first go through the lesson's PDF and study the new vocabulary. Often, I would also try to read through the dialog to pick up any new grammatical structure too.

Only afterward do I listen to the mp3.

Different people study differently. I'm a math dude, and I like my definitions before the theorems. So, to me this method works better.

That's the way I used to do it too. My Japanese ability was really lopsided because of it.

Good way to develop your reading & grammar. Not so good for your listening.

You can't pre-study before real conversations. And if you're not used to hearing unknown words, you can really be thrown when you hear one in a real conversation.

If you want to improve your listening at all, I highly recommend that you do the MP3 before the PDF. This will help you A LOT with the listening part of the JLPT.

Further, the Jpod team should leave the vocab section after the conversation. If you want to hear the vocab section first, I recommend that: you suffer through the conversation without it; get the vocab; listen to the conversation again after you know the vocab.

[tarokun]

Ah... That's true.

I only realized that after I listened to today's informal track (Beginner's #73) without going to the PDF. There were a few words I didn't know, and I was forced to listen hard and to guess at the meanings from the context.

That turned out to be a very rewarding exercise.

[Charles]

Well, all I'm suggesting is to try it once or twice as an experiment.

My college textbook also put the dialogue first and then did grammar and vocabulary. JPod has the freedom to be creative and try something new.

It's like I know already know beforehand that I'm not going to understand the whole thing, so I kind of give up and struggle to just listen through the yukkuri (slowing down words you don't know does not make them any more understandable!), until I hear the vocabulary and grammar sections.

Well, that's kinda the whole point. Putting the vocab and grammar at the end forces you to just listen to the dialog without trying to analyze it. It's very important to just get used to the sounds of a conversation in addition to understanding the meaning. If they put the vocab and grammar first, everybody would be trying to analyze and understand everything and not just listening and absorbing.

We just finished Beginner Lesson #74. I think people already have some idea of what conversations sound like, don't you? Perhaps the Intermediate lessons are better as tracks to just absorb without the expectation of understanding now.

Ignoring the sweeping assumptions on what "everybody" would do, I think you have a point. Analyzing while listening can hinder listening.

However, it can hinder understanding as well! It seems like you're saying that understanding gets in the way of listening, that same way analysis gets in the way of listening. I don't agree at all. I think understanding improves listening.

If you want to hear the vocab section first, I recommend that: you suffer through the conversation without it; get the vocab; listen to the conversation again after you know the vocab.

Right, this is a podcast, and one of its strengths is to listen to things over and over again.

However, I think it's more important to understand a conversation the first time. That's what's most fun, most rewarding, and the is goal we're all shooting for.

You can't pre-study before real conversations. And if you're not used to hearing unknown words, you can really be thrown when you hear one in a real conversation.

This is a great point too. Perhaps every now and then JPod could throw in a word that hasn't been introduced unexpectedly.

Right now, it's expected that you're not going to understand everything. It may be more important now to handle unexpected situations than it is to expect that you're not going to be able to handle them.

[metablue]

They put the vocab first a few times back in the beginning. I kind of like going into the conversation with the vocab already introduced since otherwise you (well, I) have very little chance of understanding it. Otherwise I usually get a few words in the fast version, and often mistake the new words for similar semi-known words, then understand a bit more in the yukkuri version, but not a lot.

I don't know which is better in the long run, or whether it really makes a difference. I listen to every episode over and over and go back to revisit old ones at random, so I already have the context and vocab for the vast majority of listens. Eventually it all sinks in and words start to belong together in certain patterns.

I'm really looking forward to the day when I can listen to a new conversation and understand the whole thing. It'll be time for some champagne.

<edit>
I remembered a specific case where not knowing the vocab beforehand helped me learn. I guess that's a benefit - sometimes you'll think you know a word and even if you don't, the experience of thinking about it and then being wrong can really ingrain it in your mind.

There was a class with a vocab word "mushiatsui". When it came up in the conversation, I thought it was mushi (insects), and I thought the guy was complaining about all the insects. I was excited about recognizing the word. Later I learned it was "humid", and was a bit disappointed. The point is, I'll never forget that word now.

[Bueller_007]

Right now, it's expected that you're not going to understand everything. It may be more important now to handle unexpected situations than it is to expect that you're not going to be able to handle them.

Right, because regardless of how long you've studied, you're not going to understand everything. You probably won't even understand MOST of it in the beginning stages. So people have to get used to this and learn how to deal with it. I think that's the point of having the conversation first. In order to "handle unexpected situations" you can't get frazzled. Which is what happens the first few times you're thrown into the deep end of a conversation without pre-studying the vocab.

[Charles]

Wrong choice of words on my part, Bueller. Instead of "everything" I meant "the whole thing."

[Bueller_007]

Wrong choice of words on my part, Bueller. Instead of "everything" I meant "the whole thing."

Yeah, I realize that. You can replace it in my last post as well. You're never going to understand all of every conversation, so it's important to get a lot of exposure to situations where you can't understand the whole thing.

[metablue]

Do we really need a daily lesson in how to handle not understanding things? If that's what you want, you can just set your tivo wishlist to "japanese". I'm not saying that we should necessarily have the vocab first, but "to get used to not understanding things" is a silly reason not to.

[Charles]

Yeah, that's an interesting way of putting it, metablue.

Bueller, I'd respond, but I'm not sure if it's worth communicating with someone who believes he won't understand what I'll say. :)

[Bueller_007]

Do we really need a daily lesson in how to handle not understanding things?

Yes. This is part of conversation in a foreign langauge. It will happen to you, and it will happen to you OFTEN. It's a matter of fact. You have to be able to guess the meanings of words from context in real-time (and if you can't do so, you have to be able to REMEMBER the word, so you can ask the speaker about it later.) You can't get flustered. This takes practice. A LOT of practice. They would be foolish not to prepare people for this.

If that's what you want, you can just set your tivo wishlist to "japanese".

There's a world of difference between not understanding two or three words and not understanding the entire conversation. Most conversations that you enter into will contain some words you don't know, but rarely will they turn to advanced topics that you can understand nothing about, as they do on TV.

FYI, I do watch Japanese TV whenever I find a hotel that has NHK World.

I'm not saying that we should necessarily have the vocab first, but "to get used to not understanding things" is a silly reason not to.

It is absolutely NOT "a silly reason not to".

[metablue]

I do understand your point, Bueller. When teaching a language you don't want to baby people by giving them artificially easy learning material, only to have them fall apart the first time they experience a real conversation. I think you might have forgotten what it's like to be a real beginner though.

Even after listening to the podcasts multiple times, I still don't always recognize words when they pop up again. Even the "old" words often sound strange to me, just because of the context or the way the speaker pronounces them or because I lost them under all the new material I've learned since. It's not a matter of hearing a whole lot of familar words with a few new ones thrown in. It's hearing a stream of relatively unfamiliar sounds that my mind is trying to parse into known and unknown words, and sometimes succeeding and often not.

The cast and crew don't have to worry about making it too easy and familiar because even the familiar stuff isn't really that familiar. It might not be for months. So rather than emphasizing the "learn how to handle not understanding" part, which is already there, I'd much rather the material is presented in whichever way helps me learn faster.

I think that for me, not knowing the vocab beforehand helps me learn faster. It forces me to think about the words as they come and try to understand them and figure out what the conversation is about. That processing helps things stick. For others it may be different. Given that you can replay the podcasts over and over again, I think it's better to have the vocab last. That way, the people who want to hear the conversation first won't have it spoiled for them, and those who want the vocab first can ignore that first play of the conversation and then replay it as much as they want later. But I'm open to trying it the other way as an experiment.

[Satsujin]

This is a silly argument, at least in terms of how the lessons should be organized. The aspects of which way is best to learn is interesting but then again everyone learns best in different situations.

If you prefer to hear the vocab first just skip forward to hear the explanation and then go back to the start of the lesson and hear the dialogue. Better yet listen to the lesson two or three times through. Listen to it so many times that you can repeat it by heart. It's not like you are going to wear out the mp3 track by playing it too often.

To assist in this the Jpod crew could post the lesson in two separate tracks. The dialogue and then the explanation (these are recorded separate and then pasted together in post-production anyway so it's not like it would be any extra work). Then you can listen to them in what ever order your heart desires.