Literal translation needed

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

I can't seem to bridge the gap between the Japanese and English translations from Lower Intermediate's fourth lesson of season five. I need a literal translation:

Tomodachi ni asobi ni ikō to sasowareta no desu ga, dō yatte kotowareba ii deshō ka.
I was invited to go out by friends, but how should I say no?

Is "watashi wa" implied at the beginning of this sentence?
"Asobi ni ikou" = "to go playing?" - Is this commonly used as "to go out and have fun?"
"to" = "with?"

[Watashi wa] tomodachi ni asobi ni ikō to sasowareta no desu ga, dō yatte kotowareba ii deshō ka.
I, by friends, go and play, with, was invited. How do [if I] refuse, would be good?

Nihonjin wa, kihonteki ni chokusetsu hakkiri to (iie) to iwanai koto ga ōi desu.
There are a lot of instances in which Japanese people basically will not give a flat-out "no."

The "to (iie) to" section is a bit confusing. I'm guessing the first "to" is part of "hakkiri to" so it doesn't have any particular meaning, the "iie" is part of speech and the second "to" is like a verbal quotation mark.

And "koto" after "iwanai" is the nominalizer which makes it "not saying" rather than "not say." Then "oui" means "many."

Nihonjin wa, kihonteki ni chokusetsu hakkiri to (iie) to iwanai koto ga ōi desu.
Japanese people basically, directly, clearly, "no" won't say[ing], many.

Aite ni kizuite moraeru yō ni, hanashikata ni ki o tsukemashō.
Be careful with how you phrase things so that the person you're speaking to realizes what you want to say.

"Aite" isn't in the vocabulary section and I can't find it anywhere online. From context, I'm assuming it means "the other person." If so, is it the same as "tanin"?

"Kizuite" is "to notice" and "moraeru" is the potential form of "morau." When this comes after the ~te form it means "to do something for someone".

What does "you ni" mean in this context? "So that?"

Aite ni kizuite moraeru yō ni, hanashikata ni ki o tsukemashō.
The person, to notice [for them], so that, way of talking, take care.

Ato, aite ni shikkari to ayamaru koto desu ne.
Also, you should take care to properly apologize to the person you're speaking to.

"To" is part of "shikkari" right? So I don't have to worry about it too much.

Why is "koto" after ayamaru here?

Ato, aite ni shikkari to ayamaru koto desu ne.
Also, other person properly apologising.

[mmmason8967]

I can't seem to bridge the gap between the Japanese and English translations from Lower Intermediate's fifth lesson of season five.

Fourth lesson, I think you'll find

You're some way ahead of me but, for what it's worth...

Tomodachi ni asobi ni ikō to sasowareta no desu ga, dō yatte kotowareba ii deshō ka.
I was invited to go out by friends, but how should I say no?

Is "watashi wa" implied at the beginning of this sentence?

I suspect that we English speakers like to stick watashi wa onto the start of sentences whenever the subject of the verb is "I" just so that the subject is made clear. But I also suspect that what watashi wa really does is suggest that you're talking about something that specifically relates to yourself and doesn't necessarily apply to anyone else. In this particular sentence the question is really quite general: if one has been asked out by friends, how does one decline the invitation in an acceptable way? So I don't think that watashi is the implied topic.

I have a slight feeling, though, that the question I've answered wasn't exactly the one you were asking...

"Asobi ni ikou" = "to go playing?" - Is this commonly used as "to go out and have fun?"

Yes: it means to have fun or to enjoy oneself as well as to play.

"Aite" isn't in the vocabulary section and I can't find it anywhere online. From context, I'm assuming it means "the other person." If so, is it the same as "tanin"?

I think you're right, although I think aite is more of a companion and tanin is more of a stranger. But that's really only an impression that I've picked up.

マイケル

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

I can't seem to bridge the gap between the Japanese and English translations from Lower Intermediate's fifth lesson of season five.

Fourth lesson, I think you'll find

My mistake! Edited original post to reflect this.

Your answer was helpful, and it did refer to the issue I was having with the first sentence. I'd quite like Natsuko-san's opinion just to be sure though...

[ericf]

Is "watashi wa" implied?
Yes.

As a rule of thumb if "watashi wa" can be dropped from a sentence, without causing confusion, then it should be dropped; otherwise the speaker starts to sound a bit self important. Imagine if an English speaker added "As for me, " at the beginning of every sentence... It's just not natural. So, if "watashi wa" isn't there the sentence will be about the speaker. The flip side is that if the sentence isn't about the speaker the topic will be explicit; "john san wa, ...", "kare wa, ...", kanojo wa, ..." etc.


"asobi ni iku" = to go playing?
Yes. Like you say, fun is probably a better translation than playing.
-> "asobi ni ikou" is the volitional form, so more like "lets go playing/have fun"
"ni" is the target particle here; so the target (reason, if you like) of going is to have fun.


"to" is the inclusive particle, meaning "and" when used as a conjunction or "with" when used as a preposition. Here it's a preposition so "sasou" happens with "ikou".
"asobi ni ikou to sasou"
The invitation is done with "asobi ni ikou"


But, "sasou" was in the passive form (past tense) with "ni" being the indirect object marker this time (I think that's right):
"tomodachi ni ~~~~~ sasowareta"


"no desu" I think we've done before. Here it's used to point out that everything before is by way of explanation (for why the speaker's asking the question following.)

-> [I] by friends, to go and play, was invited but; how do [I] refuse well?



Well, that took far longer than I expected. I'm probably going into far too much detail. The other points another time, I think...

[ericf]

hakiri to "iie" to iwanai

Well, I think there's two different uses of the "to" particle there; a conjunction 'hakiri to ... and, like you said, a quotation ' "iie" to iu'. 'hakiri to iu' would be to say with clarity. 'hakiri to "iie" to iu' is to say "iie" with clarity.

You've already got the nominalizer and ooi = many. Note the use of a topic & topic marker because the sentence isn't about the speaker.

-> As for Japanese, not saying "no" in a basic, direct clear way, is many/often.

[ericf]

"aite" and "tanin"

Knowing the kanji would really help here :-) But as Michael said the difference is about companion or stranger. From the Jim Breen dictionary:
aite = (1) companion; partner; company; (2) other party; addressee; (3) opponent (sports, etc.)
In this case it'll be (2) other party, addressee.

And for tanin; the two characters mean:
ta = other
nin = person
Again, from the Jim Breen JDICT
tanin = (1) another person; other people; others; (2) unrelated person (i.e. not related by blood); (3) outsider; stranger;

You've already got kizuite, moraeru and you ni

[ericf]

Again, this "to" is a conjunction, of shikkari & ayamaru. -> with care, apologise. Or, properly apologise.

You can't attach desu to a verb directly, verb + desu, so you need to use koto.

Note, it's "aite ni", where "ni" is the target particle. "aite" is the target of "ayamaru".

-> also, to the other person, with care apologising.



I hope all that makes some sort of sense anyway.

[andycarmenjapanese8100]

Again, this "to" is a conjunction, of shikkari & ayamaru. -> with care, apologise. Or, properly apologise.

You can't attach desu to a verb directly, verb + desu, so you need to use koto.

What about "no desu?" Would "shikkari to ayamaru n desu ne" be the same as, "shikkari to ayamaru koto desu ne?"

And is "desu ne" only here to increase politeness?

[ericf]

A good question. There's a rule about when you can use "verb + koto" as opposed to "verb + no" that was covered in one of the podcasts a long long time ago. And I can't remember it! But in this case "verb + no" just sounds wrong (to me.) After a wee search I found:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 902AAtpaed
& also
http://jlptbootcamp.com/2011/02/jlpt-n4 ... minalizer/
http://jlptbootcamp.com/2011/02/jlpt-n4 ... to-2-of-2/
That last specifically covers nominalizers with "desu"


"desu" vs "desune"
It's a bit like adding "isn't it" at the end of a sentence in English or, in the case of a verb. "you should ~~~ shouldn't you".

"samui desu" = it's cold
"samui desune" = it's cold isn't it.

"shikkari to ayamaru koto desu" = clearly apologise.
"shikkari to ayamaru koto desu ne" = you should clearly apologise, shouldn't you.

[community.japanese]

Andy-san, マイケルさん、エリックさん、
kon'nichiwa
Wow, brilliant explanations and high-level discussion!!
Very well done and thank you!

I really don't have anything to add after professor Eric's explanations to all the details,
but I might be able to give a bit of advice about topic "watashi wa" etc.

This is something native Japanese people also should know and pay attention to;
if you don't know what the sentence topic is or wonder if "watashi wa " was omitted,
the easiest way to find out is to see the verb.
In the sentence "Tomodachi ni asobi ni ikō to sasowareta no desu ga, dō yatte kotowareba ii deshō ka",
you can spot "sasowareta" meaning "to be invited". Then "who was" (invited)? The answer should be "watashi",
otherwise it shouldn't be omitted.

This method is very useful when we come across complicated sentences with "keigo" (special polite words/expressions).
The reason why Japanese people often can't use keigo correctly is because they don't connect verbs (predicates)
and "doer" or corresponding subjects.

Natsuko(奈津子),
Team JapanesePod101.com