Can anyone check/correct my Japanese please?

[EdMcMayhem]

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone wouldn't mind taking the time to read and correct my Japanese sentences.

I just finished reading a chapter in my book about the verb-ni ikimasu/kimasu/kaerimasu form (to express the purpose of going/coming/returning to a certain place), and I would like to try to make a few sentences on my own, to be sure I understand the structure.

I will provide the English and my Japanese translation...

1a) I will go to the kitchen to cook fish.
1b)　台所　へ　魚　を　作りに　行きます。

2a) I will go to school to study Japanese.
２b）私　は　学校　へ　英語　を　勉強しに　行きます。

3a) I will to go the gym to exercise.
3b) ジム　へ　うんどしに　行きます。

4a) I will go home to sleep.
4b) 僕　の　いえ　へ　寝に　帰ります。

5a) I will come to your house to eat sushi.
5b) あなた　の　家　へ　鮨　を　たべに　きます。

I'm not 100% sure on what to do with the する verbs, like うんど　する。　If what the books says is true, 'drop -masu and and -ni,' then it should be fine, but it sounds strange to me.

Also, I'm not sure on how to conjugate 寝る。　So, if someone could give me a quick breakdown of that, that would be great.

And now that I'm thinking about it, can this structure be used without having to use ikimasu/kimasu/kaerimasu? For instance, can I say...

6a) I will buy a book to study Japanese.
6b) 私　は　日本語　を　勉強しに　本　を　買います。

My 6b doesn't seem like it makes sense, so if someone could show me the correct way to say 6a, I would appreciate it.

And finally, how does this work for the past tense? For instance, can I say...

7a) I went to the kitchen to cook fish.
7b) 私　は　台所　へ　魚　を　作りに　いきました。

Thank you for any information.

Ed

[cheeseandbeans2131]

I don't know if its just me, as I'm not the most experienced in Japanese myself, but it sounds more natural to me if the sentence is structured eg.

1. 魚　を　作りに 台所　へ　行きます。

I checked my grammar book and this is how they structure such a sentence, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Plus I think its pretty safe to drop the し after such words as 勉強, 運動　etc. in casual situations.

As for the 寝る form, its a v1/ichidan/whatever-your-text-book-calls-it type of verb, in the same vein as 食べる, 借りる etc. Hence it conjugates by dropping the る and replacing with something else, eg:

Past Plain:　寝た
Present Polite: 寝ます
Plain Neg.: 寝ない

For sentences with a strong sense of purpose, such as your number 6, you can rephrase by using the ために construct, loosely translated as 'for the purpose of' eg:

私は日本語を勉強するために本を買います。

Sound a bit false in present form, but just an example sentence. Also this would probably sound a bit weird with sentences of loose purpose such as your 1 and 4 though.

Finally you can put these sentences in past tense simply by changing the motion verb to past, as you did in no. 7.

Anyway as I said, I'm still learning so feel free to correct.

L.

[toonygal5459]

My suggestions are added in red.

1a) I will go to the kitchen to cook fish.
1b)　台所　へ　魚　を　作りに　行きます。
魚　を　作りに　台所　へ　行きます。

2a) I will go to school to study Japanese.
２b）私　は　学校　へ　英語(English) を　勉強しに　行きます。
（私　は）日本語　を　勉強しに　学校　へ　行きます。　

3a) I will to go the gym to exercise.
3b) ジム　へ　うんどしに　行きます。
運動（うんどう）しに　ジム　へ　行きます。

6a) I will buy a book to study Japanese.
6b) 私　は　日本語　を　勉強しに　本　を　買います。
私　は　日本語　を　勉強する　ために　本　を　買います。

Two grammar patterns are used to express purpose. One is Verbstem + ni + iku/kuru, which is the one you are studying now. This is used only for directional verbs (iku 'to go', kuru 'to come', kaeru 'to return', hairu 'to enter').

The second is for all verbs. Just add tame ni after the dictionary form of a verb. In the case of your 6b sentence above, 買う is not a directional verb, so you have to say: 日本語　を　勉強する　ために　本　を　買います.

And yes, you can use it for past tense too.

[arixion7914]

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone wouldn't mind taking the time to read and correct my Japanese sentences.

I just finished reading a chapter in my book about the verb-ni ikimasu/kimasu/kaerimasu form (to express the purpose of going/coming/returning to a certain place), and I would like to try to make a few sentences on my own, to be sure I understand the structure.

I will provide the English and my Japanese translation...

1a) I will go to the kitchen to cook fish.
1b)　台所　へ　魚　を　作りに　行きます。

2a) I will go to school to study Japanese.
２b）私　は　学校　へ　英語　を　勉強しに　行きます。

3a) I will to go the gym to exercise.
3b) ジム　へ　うんどしに　行きます。

4a) I will go home to sleep.
4b) 僕　の　いえ　へ　寝に　帰ります。

5a) I will come to your house to eat sushi.
5b) あなた　の　家　へ　鮨　を　たべに　きます。

I'm not 100% sure on what to do with the する verbs, like うんど　する。　If what the books says is true, 'drop -masu and and -ni,' then it should be fine, but it sounds strange to me.

Also, I'm not sure on how to conjugate 寝る。　So, if someone could give me a quick breakdown of that, that would be great.

And now that I'm thinking about it, can this structure be used without having to use ikimasu/kimasu/kaerimasu? For instance, can I say...

6a) I will buy a book to study Japanese.
6b) 私　は　日本語　を　勉強しに　本　を　買います。

My 6b doesn't seem like it makes sense, so if someone could show me the correct way to say 6a, I would appreciate it.

And finally, how does this work for the past tense? For instance, can I say...

7a) I went to the kitchen to cook fish.
7b) 私　は　台所　へ　魚　を　作りに　いきました。

Thank you for any information.

Ed

Yep, 6(b) doesn't make sense. A blow-by-blow translation is : I, in the location of studying Japanese, completed buying a book. Or - more directly - "I bought a book while studying Japanese". It is grammatical, but is worthless in conversation. And even if that was what you wanted to express.

You could do 7 (b), although that would be more often for referring to other people's actions. And usually to, "watashi wa" will be left out.

As tonygal suggests, you could also use "tame ni", although I would disagree with her and say use "-tai tame ni" instead of "-(r)u tame ni". "tame" is a synonym of "toki" and "jikan" which mean "time". So, literally translated, "watashi wa taisho e ikimasu, sakana o zaru tame ni" is "In the time of cooking fish, I went to the kitchen". (I am improvising on the pronounciation of kanji, because I haven't learnt them.) Conversely, "taisho e ikimasu, sakana o zaritai tame ni watashi wa" (How I love Japanese grammar!) means "In the time of wanting to cook fish, I went to the kitchen". Slight difference in sense between the two. The first means "Because I had to cook fish, I went to the kitchen". The second means "Because I wanted to cook fish, I went to the kitchen". Both express purpose, but different kinds of purposes.

And now for something the grammar books don't tell you:-

(1) "ni" is used in the format "(location action is completed in) ni (action which is completed or going to be completed)". "location" is taken in the widest sense of the word, so "location" can refer to another action, as in this case.

(2) Japanese words are formed with a content-portion and a conjugation portion. The content-portion is a noun; the conjugation portion changes a noun into a verb or an adjective or an adverb. So there is no such thing as a "ni" form actually. What there is is the content-portion followed by the "ni" location marker. It would be ... I think ... perfectly alright in the case of a "(kanji) suru" verb to simply drop the "suru" entirely and just use the kanji content-portion. So, instead of "benkyou shi ni", you would say "benkyou ni".

Sugo-ku nai ka?

ii desu ka? benkyou ni ganba-e!

Raphael.

[toonygal5459]

As tonygal suggests, you could also use "tame ni", although I would disagree with her and say use "-tai tame ni" instead of "-(r)u tame ni". "tame" is a synonym of "toki" and "jikan" which mean "time". So, literally translated, "watashi wa taisho e ikimasu, sakana o zaru tame ni" is "In the time of cooking fish, I went to the kitchen". (I am improvising on the pronounciation of kanji, because I haven't learnt them.

I don't know where this poster got the idea that tame is a synonym of toki and jikan. It's not.

Vdict + tame ni / (r)u + tame ni (not -tai) is used to express purpose, as in:

1) Kazoku o sasaeru tame ni hataraki-hajimemashita
　家族を支えるために働き始めました。
　(I started working to support my family).

Conversely, "taisho e ikimasu, sakana o zaritai tame ni watashi wa" (How I love Japanese grammar!) means "In the time of wanting to cook fish, I went to the kitchen". Slight difference in sense between the two. The first means "Because I had to cook fish, I went to the kitchen". The second means "Because I wanted to cook fish, I went to the kitchen". Both express purpose, but different kinds of purposes.

If you wanted to say "Because I had to make fish, I went to the kitchen" you would say:
2) Sakana o tsukuranakereba naranakatta node, daidokoro e ikimashita."
　魚を作らなければならなかったので、台所へ行きました。

And if you wanted to say the other sentence: "Because I wanted to make fish, I went to the kitchen" you would say:
3) Sakana o tsukuritakatta node, daidokoro e ikimashita.
　魚を作りたかったので、台所へ行きました。

Neither of these expresses purpose as in my first example above. Rather, they give a reason for the action using node "because"

And let's not be confused by the [(no) tame ni] that expresses cause. For example, jiko no tame ni densha ga okuremashita "because of an accident, the train was late." When [tame ni] expresses cause, unlike when it expresses purpose, it is preceded by [V/Adj pre-nominal] forms. Some additional examples:

(a) Ame ga futta tame ni haikingu ni ikemasen-deshita.
雨が降ったためにハイキングに行けませんでした。
(Because it rained, we couldn't go hiking.)

(b) Kono doogu wa benrina tame ni yoku uremasu.
この道具は便利なためによく売れます。
(This tool sells well because it is useful.)

It would be ... I think ... perfectly alright in the case of a "(kanji) suru" verb to simply drop the "suru" entirely and just use the kanji content-portion. So, instead of "benkyou shi ni", you would say "benkyou ni".

He is correct on this point. Ni can be attached immediately after the nouns which refer to activity if the relevant verb is directional. As in benkyou ni ikimasu "go for studying" or kaimono ni ikimasu "go for shopping."

[liam]

I recommend posting it on http://lang-8.com to get native speaker comment.

[arixion7914]

As tonygal suggests, you could also use "tame ni", although I would disagree with her and say use "-tai tame ni" instead of "-(r)u tame ni". "tame" is a synonym of "toki" and "jikan" which mean "time". So, literally translated, "watashi wa taisho e ikimasu, sakana o zaru tame ni" is "In the time of cooking fish, I went to the kitchen". (I am improvising on the pronounciation of kanji, because I haven't learnt them.

I don't know where this poster got the idea that tame is a synonym of toki and jikan. It's not.

Vdict + tame ni / (r)u + tame ni (not -tai) is used to express purpose, as in:

1) Kazoku o sasaeru tame ni hataraki-hajimemashita
　家族を支えるために働き始めました。
　(I started working to support my family).

Conversely, "taisho e ikimasu, sakana o zaritai tame ni watashi wa" (How I love Japanese grammar!) means "In the time of wanting to cook fish, I went to the kitchen". Slight difference in sense between the two. The first means "Because I had to cook fish, I went to the kitchen". The second means "Because I wanted to cook fish, I went to the kitchen". Both express purpose, but different kinds of purposes.

If you wanted to say "Because I had to make fish, I went to the kitchen" you would say:
2) Sakana o tsukuranakereba naranakatta node, daidokoro e ikimashita."
　魚を作らなければならなかったので、台所へ行きました。

And if you wanted to say the other sentence: "Because I wanted to make fish, I went to the kitchen" you would say:
3) Sakana o tsukuritakatta node, daidokoro e ikimashita.
　魚を作りたかったので、台所へ行きました。

Neither of these expresses purpose as in my first example above. Rather, they give a reason for the action using node "because"

And let's not be confused by the [(no) tame ni] that expresses cause. For example, jiko no tame ni densha ga okuremashita "because of an accident, the train was late." When [tame ni] expresses cause, unlike when it expresses purpose, it is preceded by [V/Adj pre-nominal] forms. Some additional examples:

(a) Ame ga futta tame ni haikingu ni ikemasen-deshita.
雨が降ったためにハイキングに行けませんでした。
(Because it rained, we couldn't go hiking.)

(b) Kono doogu wa benrina tame ni yoku uremasu.
この道具は便利なためによく売れます。
(This tool sells well because it is useful.)

It would be ... I think ... perfectly alright in the case of a "(kanji) suru" verb to simply drop the "suru" entirely and just use the kanji content-portion. So, instead of "benkyou shi ni", you would say "benkyou ni".

He is correct on this point. Ni can be attached immediately after the nouns which refer to activity if the relevant verb is directional. As in benkyou ni ikimasu "go for studying" or kaimono ni ikimasu "go for shopping."

toonygal-san,

(1) I got it from watching television and checking the dictionary. "toki", "tame" and "jikan" all use identical kanji, although the preference is to use hiragana for the first two. But yes, they are used for different purposes; I never denied that.

"nihongo o benkyou shitai tame ni koko ni kimashita" means "I came here because I wanted to learn Japanese" and can also be rendered as "I came here to learn Japanese". Even in English, "because" expresses either cause or purpose, depending on the context which it is used; same for "tame ni" in Japanese.

(2) Apart from getting the vocab wrong, I don't think I made a significant mistake. So, to change: sakana o tsuketai tame ni, daidokoro e ikimashita. Yes, your formulation is correct, albeit a little clumsy, since you used a double negative. My way of saying what you said, which only differs in colloquiality is: "tsukenai itara naranakatta no da, daidokoro e ikimashita". Which translates literally to "Because I didn't want the food to become uncooked, I went to the kitchen"; which can be rendered to "I went to the kitchen to cook food".

(3) "node" is in reality "no de", literally indicating "(some action) is still going on in what is possessed by (some situation)". (Why you think it is one word is because Japanese writing, like Chinese writing, does not have spaces between words.) In fact, think of "no de" as a hyper-contraction of "... no minna-paato de aru" or "in which is still existing all parts of ..." . In fact, you can apply this reasoning to the other four forms "no da", "no desu" and "no datte" and "no datto". Grammar books don't provide you everything. Also, Japanese drop verbs-to-be when they are unnecessary. Japanese is the champion language of implied context.

(4) Incidentally the dict/V form is suggested because people link it to the "to (x)" form of English verbs. Of course, "tame ni" is not a conjunction like "because". Rather, "tame" is a noun used to suggest an idea. So whatever "-ru", "-tai", "-te", "-ita" or "... na" or whatever conjugation you can think of, that is acting as the relative clause for "tame", so the final interlinear explanation for "(reason) tame ni (situation)" is "(situation) completed happening in the time/moment, which was (reason)."

(5) Well, you are right trivially. But you are not right if you think that a directional verb is the only verb that can be placed after "ni". For instance, "ano hito kouen ni saremashita". ("The man was arrested in the park".) I supposed "arrested" can be taken roughly as a directional verb but it's a little weird. I think that "bunji wa hon o benkyou ni saremashita" is a perfectly grammatical sentence; "(I) pick up vocabulary by studying books". Incidentally, "kaimono ni ikimasu" literally means "completing going to things that are shopped for". Perhaps "kau koto ni ikimasu" fits your purposes better?

If I may a bit direct, you seem to be memorizing sentence forms without seeing how they are constructed in Japanese.

Regards,
Raphael

[toonygal5459]

"nihongo o benkyou shitai tame ni koko ni kimashita" means "I came here because I wanted to learn Japanese" and can also be rendered as "I came here to learn Japanese". Even in English, "because" expresses either cause or purpose, depending on the context which it is used; same for "tame ni" in Japanese.

Ah, I see what you're saying!

You're confusing [tame ni] used for purpose and [tame ni] used for cause. Your first sentence is correct, but "I came to learn Japanese" would be "Nihongo o benkyou shi ni kimashita" or "Nihongo o benkyou suru tame ni kimashita." (I came in order to learn Japanese.)
(ref. "Japanese Grammar and Communication Strategies" (pages 202-205) by Senko K. Maynard.)

Yes, your formulation is correct, albeit a little clumsy, since you used a double negative. My way of saying what you said, which only differs in colloquiality is: "tsukenai itara naranakatta no da, daidokoro e ikimashita". Which translates literally to "Because I didn't want the food to become uncooked, I went to the kitchen"; which can be rendered to "I went to the kitchen to cook food".

I don't exactly know what you mean to say in this point... My sentence uses the "-nakereba naranai" form to express obligation (have to do, must do). If that is what you're referring to when you say "double negative," it's not at all clumsy. :) I can't quite decipher your Japanese sentences, though. "I went to the kitchen to make food" is simply "tabemono o tsukuri-ni daidokoro e ikimashita." or "tabemono o tsukuru tame ni daidokoro e ikimashita."

But you are not right if you think that a directional verb is the only verb that can be placed after "ni". For instance, "ano hito kouen ni saremashita". ("The man was arrested in the park".)

I don't think that at all. Ni serves a completely different purpose in this sentence. It indicates a location where something (being arrested, 逮捕される taiho sareru) takes place (the park). What we were talking about before is the [Vstem + ni + iku / kuru] construction to express purpose. That particular pattern only works with directional verbs. I certainly didn't mean to imply that the rules of one grammar pattern extend to all uses of the particle ni.

This is kind of outside of the grammar discussion here, but for the sake of correctness,で (de) would actually be used in this sentences instead of に (ni).
あの人は公園で逮捕されました。
Ano hito wa kouen de taiho saremashita.

(A Google search in quotes for ”公園に逮捕” returns just 3 results - all of which are yojijukugo compounds of 逮捕当日 - vs “公園で逮捕” which returns 588,000 results. Gah! Ni and de still trip me up sometimes because so often they seem to be interchangeable, but it looks like this is one of those cases where it's unquestionably で (de). According to my particles book, "に (ni) indicates the location of an action that is relatively static rather than one that's dynamic." So, that makes sense because being arrested is a dynamic action! Neat.)

Just to address a few other things...

I got it from watching television and checking the dictionary. "toki", "tame" and "jikan" all use identical kanji, although the preference is to use hiragana for the first two.

為 (tame) and 時 (toki) use different kanji.
I know you said before that you can't read kanji, but if you look closely you can see that they aren't the same. :)
Jikan is 時間, which only shares its first character with toki.

Node is written as a single word in many grammar books. Sometimes it isn't. It just depends on how you like to think of it: as two particles or as something which functions together as a single word. I prefer the latter, but neither way is incorrect.

If I may a bit direct, you seem to be memorizing sentence forms without seeing how they are constructed in Japanese.

No, I know how sentences are constructed in Japanese. :)
I passed JLPT level2 last year, and am working toward N1. It's really hard, though! x_x

Aaaaanyway....
Hope this helps!

[arixion7914]

"nihongo o benkyou shitai tame ni koko ni kimashita" means "I came here because I wanted to learn Japanese" and can also be rendered as "I came here to learn Japanese". Even in English, "because" expresses either cause or purpose, depending on the context which it is used; same for "tame ni" in Japanese.

Ah, I see what you're saying!

You're confusing [tame ni] used for purpose and [tame ni] used for cause. Your first sentence is correct, but "I came to learn Japanese" would be "Nihongo o benkyou shi ni kimashita" or "Nihongo o benkyou suru tame ni kimashita." (I came in order to learn Japanese.)
(ref. "Japanese Grammar and Communication Strategies" (pages 202-205) by Senko K. Maynard.)

Yes, your formulation is correct, albeit a little clumsy, since you used a double negative. My way of saying what you said, which only differs in colloquiality is: "tsukenai itara naranakatta no da, daidokoro e ikimashita". Which translates literally to "Because I didn't want the food to become uncooked, I went to the kitchen"; which can be rendered to "I went to the kitchen to cook food".

I don't exactly know what you mean to say in this point... My sentence uses the "-nakereba naranai" form to express obligation (have to do, must do). If that is what you're referring to when you say "double negative," it's not at all clumsy. I can't quite decipher your Japanese sentences, though. "I went to the kitchen to make food" is simply "tabemono o tsukuri-ni daidokoro e ikimashita." or "tabemono o tsukuru tame ni daidokoro e ikimashita."

But you are not right if you think that a directional verb is the only verb that can be placed after "ni". For instance, "ano hito kouen ni saremashita". ("The man was arrested in the park".)

I don't think that at all. Ni serves a completely different purpose in this sentence. It indicates a location where something (being arrested, 逮捕される taiho sareru) takes place (the park). What we were talking about before is the [Vstem + ni + iku / kuru] construction to express purpose. That particular pattern only works with directional verbs. I certainly didn't mean to imply that the rules of one grammar pattern extend to all uses of the particle ni.

This is kind of outside of the grammar discussion here, but for the sake of correctness,で (de) would actually be used in this sentences instead of に (ni).
あの人は公園で逮捕されました。
Ano hito wa kouen de taiho saremashita.

(A Google search in quotes for ”公園に逮捕” returns just 3 results - all of which are yojijukugo compounds of 逮捕当日 - vs “公園で逮捕” which returns 588,000 results. Gah! Ni and de still trip me up sometimes because so often they seem to be interchangeable, but it looks like this is one of those cases where it's unquestionably で (de). According to my particles book, "に (ni) indicates the location of an action that is relatively static rather than one that's dynamic." So, that makes sense because being arrested is a dynamic action! Neat.)

Just to address a few other things...

I got it from watching television and checking the dictionary. "toki", "tame" and "jikan" all use identical kanji, although the preference is to use hiragana for the first two.

為 (tame) and 時 (toki) use different kanji.
I know you said before that you can't read kanji, but if you look closely you can see that they aren't the same.
Jikan is 時間, which only shares its first character with toki.

Node is written as a single word in many grammar books. Sometimes it isn't. It just depends on how you like to think of it: as two particles or as something which functions together as a single word. I prefer the latter, but neither way is incorrect.

If I may a bit direct, you seem to be memorizing sentence forms without seeing how they are constructed in Japanese.

No, I know how sentences are constructed in Japanese.
I passed JLPT level2 last year, and am working toward N1. It's really hard, though! x_x

Aaaaanyway....
Hope this helps!

toonygal,

(1) Ah, I see. You are studying JLPT, so you are focused on technically-correct formal Japanese. I am interested in Japanese conversation, so that fine distinction between purpose and cause isn/t necessary. But I take your point anyhow.

(2) You could your grammar book for that. "naranai" means "not becoming"; it's the negative form of "naru" (become). "-nakereba" is the conditional form of a negative, in this case "prepare" ("cook" is another verb, actually). So literally, it is "The potential situation of .... not occuring". I reproduced your exact same sentence, but using "nai itara" instead of "nakereba". "itara" is the "tara" conditional conjugation for "iru". "naranakata" means "did not become". The only thing I missed out was the opening "sakana o"; if that confused you, many apologies. And I guess I simply don't like double negatives. I thought there is an "o ...ru" end-sentence that accomplishes the same task.

(3) Okay, sorry for that.

(4) Well, I was giving a hypothetical example. Although I wonder if "de sareta" would occur more than "ni sareta" if you were to search, say, the asahi Shimbun. (I guess not many criminals are arrested in parks.)

That having been said, the tricky part is that the context will determine whether "de" or "ni" is used, I think. If you are relating a story, then "de" would used because the action is incomplete/dynamic at the moment of telling. Whereas, "ni" will be used to report on an action that is complete/static at the moment of telling. So, think of a police official giving a presentation on past cases, and it will be "ni ... saremashita" in the summary. On the other hand, someone who is relating a particular incident will use "de ... saremashita". I wonder if that is more completed than JLPT Lvl 2 ...

Japanese grammar books like portraying Japanese verbs in terms of English tenses. I don't think this is accurate after thinking through Japanese. I would think that the forms of a normal Japanese verb are rather the following: the noun-term form (-ru or -u) , the incomplete form (-te) and complete form (-ta form). On top of these, you have negative forms, conditional forms, causative forms, passive forms and so on ... The noun-term form is an inheritance from Chinese which does not actually have tenses at all; What Chinese has are specific character-conjugations denoting concepts of time-shift and concurrency.

Because the "te" form is an incomplete tense, stringing "te" forms together creates a time series. For example, "kite benkyou shite asobu" will be "come, then study, then play". The noun-term form (or the kanji form, if you prefer to call it that) allows "verbs" to be treated as nouns. so "kite" supplies the relative clause for "benkyou" and "benkyou shite" supplies a relative clause for "asobu". "asobu" is treated as a pseudo noun. So, literally translated, we have "the (incomplete) playing that is doing the incomplete studying , which is making the incomplete coming of ... (become)." If you reverse the aspect - that is, complete the "coming", you get a time-series. If "coming" is complete, "studying" is implicitly complete, and then "playing" is implicitly complete. Remember that these are actions, and you get a time-series.

(5) Okay, noted. Then, of course, Kanji have many different pronunciations as well, so we could both be right.

(6) Still to be technically correct, there has to be just one correct way, and I am for the former. It doesn't matter in Japanese writing because there are no spaces between Japanese words.

(7) Ganbatte ike!

[j_bertoni2279]

I agree that spacing in Japanese is fluid. "no de" or "node", whichever you prefer, is a more formal way to causation or correlation of some sort, and "de" is just the gerund of "da". It doesn't have any meaning like "(some action) is still going on in what is possessed by (some situation)", which I can't actually parse. Literally, maybe "A no de" is something like "being the case that A is true". In some cases, "kara" is a fine substitution for "no de".

And now for something the grammar books don't tell you:-

You must be using a very poor grammar book if it doesn't cover point 1. Your statements in point 2 doesn't make any sense to me yet.

Context has nothing to do with choosing between ni and de to mark the location of a verb. Some classes of verbs take ni, others take de, and that needs to be memorized.

"tsukenai itara naranakatta no da"

This is grammatically wrong. It's not clear to me what you're trying to do, but "itara", whichever verb you're trying to conjugate, shouldn't be following another verbal. Whether you like double negatives or not, they are very common in Japanese. The base verb is tukuru, and I don't know what you're using tukeru instead.

Because the "te" form is an incomplete tense, stringing "te" forms together creates a time series.

I don't know what you mean by an "incomplete tense", but stringing "te" forms together sometimes, but by no means always, creates a time sequence. A "te" phrase can indicate causation, for example, or simple modify the following verb in some way.

Okay, noted. Then, of course, Kanji have many different pronunciations as well, so we could both be right.

Many characters have multiple pronunciations, but you're wrong about these characters. A dictionary will show that quite easily.

[arixion7914]

I agree that spacing in Japanese is fluid. "no de" or "node", whichever you prefer, is a more formal way to causation or correlation of some sort, and "de" is just the gerund of "da". It doesn't have any meaning like "(some action) is still going on in what is possessed by (some situation)", which I can't actually parse. Literally, maybe "A no de" is something like "being the case that A is true". In some cases, "kara" is a fine substitution for "no de".

And now for something the grammar books don't tell you:-

You must be using a very poor grammar book if it doesn't cover point 1. Your statements in point 2 doesn't make any sense to me yet.

Context has nothing to do with choosing between ni and de to mark the location of a verb. Some classes of verbs take ni, others take de, and that needs to be memorized.

"tsukenai itara naranakatta no da"

This is grammatically wrong. It's not clear to me what you're trying to do, but "itara", whichever verb you're trying to conjugate, shouldn't be following another verbal. Whether you like double negatives or not, they are very common in Japanese. The base verb is tukuru, and I don't know what you're using tukeru instead.

Because the "te" form is an incomplete tense, stringing "te" forms together creates a time series.

I don't know what you mean by an "incomplete tense", but stringing "te" forms together sometimes, but by no means always, creates a time sequence. A "te" phrase can indicate causation, for example, or simple modify the following verb in some way.

Okay, noted. Then, of course, Kanji have many different pronunciations as well, so we could both be right.

Many characters have multiple pronunciations, but you're wrong about these characters. A dictionary will show that quite easily.

j_bertoni,

(1) I agree with this, except the "de is a gerund of da" bit. I would say "de functions like how a gerund of da would function in a Latin-influenced language". But Japanese is constructed like Chinese, not like Latin.

(2) On the contrary. I was reading 6 different best-selling grammar books. Yes, they covered point 1. But I thought point 1 is just a little shallow. If a Sino-Japanese connection is strong, then "no" and "da" or "de" will not have to change their individual meanings when lumped together as "no da" or "no de", because that is not how Chinese works.

You are not understanding me because you are still mapping Latin grammar onto Japanese.

As for your statement, it's equivalent to "whether you use 'is' or 'are' in a sentence isn't dependent on the context; there are certain classes of nouns to which you attach 'is' and other classes of nouns to which you attach 'are'; they need to be memorized, that is all". Let me ask you: does the verb "Makkodoru" conjugate with "ni" or "de"? "Makkodoru" is a colloquial slang verb for "going to McDonalds".

Incidentally, also, your grammar book must be very poor (ooh, now is my turn) if it doesn't tell you that "ni" and "de" are clausal-ending particles, not clausal-beginning particles. So they are not attached to verbs that follow them, but instead are attached to (verbal) nouns that come before them. So even if you were as foolish as to try and memorize a list of verbal constructions with "ni" and "de", there is no such list to refer to.

And while I am at it, even this, JPod, mentions several times that Japanese is a high-context language. So you denying that context has anything to do with usage of particles is hen datta. hontou ni de.

(3) Why am I using "tsukeru"? Because apparently the person whom I am replying to used it. "itara" is the "-tara" conjugation of "iru". "-nai itara" is an impromptu substitution for the negative of the "tara" form, which has exactly the same meaning as the "-nakereba" form. So your comment about double negatives is superfluous in relation to this sentence, because this sentence still uses double negatives.

(4) Complete and incomplete tenses exist in some languages, like ancient Hebrew and (I would argue) Japanese. A complete tense denotes an action that has been completed; an incomplete tense denotes an action that has not been completed. An incomplete action is an action that is either ongoing or scheduled to begin soon.

As for your point on "-te" forms, I agree with you on that. Although I can't resist to ask you: and how do you know when a string of "-te" - forms indicates a time series, and when it doesn't?

(5) Didn't you read the "okay, noted" bit?

Raphael

P.S.: You really shouldn't try to argue with me on (2), unless you have studied Chinese before. I am a native Mandarin Chinese speaker, and studied Chinese for 10 years.

[Jessi]

Some corrections..

(3) Why am I using "tsukeru"? Because apparently the person whom I am replying to used it. "itara" is the "-tara" conjugation of "iru". "-nai itara" is an impromptu substitution for the negative of the "tara" form, which has exactly the same meaning as the "-nakereba" form. So your comment about double negatives is superfluous in relation to this sentence, because this sentence still uses double negatives.

There is no such thing as "nai itara", it would be "nakattara", the -tara form of "nai". That has the same meaning as "nakareba".
But while you can say "-nakereba naranai" (must do something), it sounds strange to say "-nakattara naranai".

The verb is "tsukuru", meaning "to make".

But Japanese is constructed like Chinese, not like Latin.

You won't find many similarities between Japanese and Chinese grammar - only the writing systems/onyomi readings.

[arixion7914]

Some corrections..

(3) Why am I using "tsukeru"? Because apparently the person whom I am replying to used it. "itara" is the "-tara" conjugation of "iru". "-nai itara" is an impromptu substitution for the negative of the "tara" form, which has exactly the same meaning as the "-nakereba" form. So your comment about double negatives is superfluous in relation to this sentence, because this sentence still uses double negatives.

There is no such thing as "nai itara", it would be "nakattara", the -tara form of "nai". That has the same meaning as "nakareba".
But while you can say "-nakereba naranai" (must do something), it sounds strange to say "-nakattara naranai".

The verb is "tsukuru", meaning "to make".

But Japanese is constructed like Chinese, not like Latin.

You won't find many similarities between Japanese and Chinese grammar - only the writing systems/onyomi readings.

Sa ... netai made

Jessi- (sensei),

(1) [nakattara] desu So desu ne! kikimasu koto hen da kedo? hontou desu ka? mmm ...

(2) So desu ne.

(3) So desu ka? hontu ni chigana-mono de wa nai no ka? nihongo wa mukashi ni zenbu aru you ni chikokugo ga no ka? So shite, kore de wa, chigana-mono ga imasu mada kashira. kanji wa tsukuru koto ga motanakereba naranai no desu. onyomi dake mo nai tsumori. onyomi ni itta-kata imasu mada desu yo! minna kana wa kanji kara ga kita da na. Sore de wa, nihongo no kaki-kata ni mitte dekimashita desu ne.

daro wa specific cases o kangaete iru anata ga kashira? te de wa, waretachi mo atta desu. Big picture no mita wake desu. tashika ni watashi mo shirimashita koto ga konna ni chigau. watashi no baka mo nai yo! Eigo to Latin mo wa tsukadan chigau mada konna ni.

igai de, arigatou gozaimasu!

Mata ja,
Referiru


Jessi-(sensei),

(1) It's that strange really? hmm ...

(2) Yes, okay. I got that one already.

(3) Really? no similarities? In the past Japan used to use kanji whole-sale. It is hard to believe that Japanese and Chinese do not share similar grammatical features, and share only onyomi. Even onyomi has its own grammar! And all the kana are derived from kanji. As you pointed out, the writing system is similar.

Perhaps you are thinking of specific cases? If so, we are on the same page. I was talking about the big picture view of things. Of course, there are differences in specific constructions in Japanese vis-a-vis Chinese; I'm not that stupid, you know. Even English and Latin have lots of differences between them in this respect!

Other that that, thanks very much!

Regards,
Raphael

[Javizy]

you could also use "tame ni", although I would disagree with her and say use "-tai tame ni" instead of "-(r)u tame ni".

You'd be wrong to disagree because this would change the OP's intended meaning.

The first means "Because I had to cook fish, I went to the kitchen". The second means "Because I wanted to cook fish, I went to the kitchen". Both express purpose, but different kinds of purposes.

...

I am interested in Japanese conversation, so that fine distinction between purpose and cause isn/t necessary.

The 'unnecessary fine distinction' between cause and purpose is what explains the change in meaning above and the difference between your two (inaccurately translated) sentences.

The difference is particularly important with ために, since it's a neutral expression when used for purpose, but formal when used to express (uncontrollable) cause. から and ので are used much more frequently to express (general) cause. This is probably something a person only interested in conversation should be aware of.

You really shouldn't try to argue with me on (2), unless you have studied Chinese before. I am a native Mandarin Chinese speaker, and studied Chinese for 10 years.

I think knowledge of Japanese carries a bit more weight here, and cheeseandbeans2131 and toonygal5459 gave good demonstrations of that in their original posts. If you think hontou ni de is acceptable Japanese, then I'd leave it in their capable hands.

[j_bertoni2279]

I agree with this, except the "de is a gerund of da" bit.

Sorry, but "de" is the gerund, or "te" form, of "da", and Japanese grammar is not at all like Chinese. I am not a native Chinese speaker, but I have studied the language, and Japanese is far different from Chinese even in the basics. I haven't studied much Latin grammar at all, but mapping it onto Japanese or Chinese would be inappropriate, and I'm not doing that. The Japanese imported the characters and words based on them, but the grammar is Japanese.

Incidentally, also, your grammar book must be very poor (ooh, now is my turn) if it doesn't tell you that "ni" and "de" are clausal-ending particles, not clausal-beginning particles. So they are not attached to verbs that follow them, but instead are attached to (verbal) nouns that come before them. So even if you were as foolish as to try and memorize a list of verbal constructions with "ni" and "de", there is no such list to refer to.

Sorry, but that's not correct, either. "ni" and "de" are connected to the nominals they follow, which I never denied, but the choice of one or the other is based on the verb, when used to indicate location. "ni" is for stative verbs, and "de" for action verbs. "koko de taberu" could be "I will eat here", but never "koko ni taberu". If "makodoru" is a verb of motion, it takes "ni" or "e" for the destination. "Tokyo ni iku" or "Tokyo e iku", but never "Tokyo de iku", when Tokyo is the destination. The category of each verb must be memorized.

an incomplete tense

Okay, now I think I understand what you are saying, but the correct terminology is "perfective" and "imperfective", and a "te" form can be either. The "te" is neither perfective nor imperfective. "iku" would be imperfective, and "itta" would be the perfective, as well as those terms apply to Japanese.

As for your point on "-te" forms, I agree with you on that. Although I can't resist to ask you: and how do you know when a string of "-te" - forms indicates a time series, and when it doesn't?

Context and logic are the only way.

5) Didn't you read the "okay, noted" bit?

Yes, but perhaps you are forgetting your response:

(5) Okay, noted. Then, of course, Kanji have many different pronunciations as well, so we could both be right.