Am i correct in thinking????

[australis]

Hi There, my name is Ian, and yes another newbie.

I have wanted to learn japanese for a long time but never had the time but ive decided to give it a good go as i now have relations in Saitama.

I,ve looked at various web sites on learning japanese and have found some good ones www.japanesepod101.com excellent and a few kanji training sites.

I thought if i,m to do this properly i would have to learn to read and write Kanji so i thought that the best way to do this would be to start at grade 1 level 80 kanji characters, and progress grade 2,3,4 ect,ect.

Am i correct to do it this way???? as far as i can see there isnt any other way to learn properly.

Any help would be most appreciated.

[QuackingShoe]

You can do it that way, but it's what I would consider 'the hard way.' I would recommend using this site: http://kanji.koohii.com/learnmore.php along with the book it's intended to be used with, to familiarize yourself with the standard character set - a rough idea of what they mean, and more importantly, a way to learn both how to easily recognize them and write them. It gives you a very solid foundation to branch out beyond the basic 2000+, as well. Once you've done that, it is, in my opinion, most effective to learn the readings of kanji in context of the words they're used with.
The forums there are also a good resource.

It may not be the best fit for you, but I would recommend at least giving it a try, as there is a free sample online. http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/pub ... sample.pdf

Actually I'm only being diplomatic. I think it's probably the best fit for everyone >.>

[Javizy]

I'd agree with the above recommendation. It allows you to treat kanji as a separate unit while you work on building a foundation in the language. This really helps limit the strain on your memory. It's by no means easy, but you certainly relieve yourself of a lot of the effort and frustration associated with learning the Japanese writing system.

Whatever method you decide to use, I'd definitely avoid the graded system the Japanese themselves use. It's far from efficient, not intended for foreigners, and designed to be learnt over many hours over many years in an environment of complete Japanese immersion.

[inquisitive]

I'd agree with the above recommendation. It allows you to treat kanji as a separate unit while you work on building a foundation in the language. This really helps limit the strain on your memory. It's by no means easy, but you certainly relieve yourself of a lot of the effort and frustration associated with learning the Japanese writing system.

Whatever method you decide to use, I'd definitely avoid the graded system the Japanese themselves use. It's far from efficient, not intended for foreigners, and designed to be learnt over many hours over many years in an environment of complete Japanese immersion.

So from what you're saying, it looks my Genki book will take too long, since it is supposedly the same book that Japanese elementary students first use to learn the language. I think i will learn the Heisig method first.

[QuackingShoe]

I'm pretty much positive that Genki is not used by Japanese elementary schoolers. I've never used the books, but I've heard good and bad. I'm sure it's fine to use, but don't use it exclusively. Don't use any textbook exclusively And many would recommend finishing Heisig in it's entirety before doing anything else. I'm largely indifferent.

[Javizy]

And many would recommend finishing Heisig in it's entirety before doing anything else. I'm largely indifferent.

I've never understood this point. I understand avoiding readings and extra meanings for kanji, because the idea is to simplify, and thus speed up the process of learning. Like I said, it allows you to treat kanji as a separate unit, which means you can go about learning Japanese language without worrying about it, almost as a completely different subject. If we're not capable of studying multiple subjects concurrently, how did any of us survive at school? Unless somebody was doing the book full time, I can't really see any reason not to at least learn a few fundamentals, or listen to some newbie lessons.

[australis]

Thanks All for your comments and links.
As far as i can see it looks like i would be better in just learning as much of the language first then come back to the Kanji at a later stage.

Its harder for me as i,m not constantly talking to Japanese speaking people here in Australia, most asians here are Chinese and would probably be easier to learn as i would be able to speak with them on a daily basis.

Its also awkward to enroll your self for courses as most of the newbie lessons are held closer to the city of Melbourne.

Anyway thanks again i will just keep battling along.

Kanpai Ian

[rpgherogaz]

From where i am, there are NO courses for Japanese within 300 miles. Which is very bad. People get the impression that it is to difficult to learn, but it really is not any differnt than most other languages.


I'm still very new, and I am self taught, however, i do feel I have made progress, which is noticeable.

RTK1 really is a great starting point. It is so much easier to reconise Kanji, once you know how to write it and break it up into primitives.

You'll also notice (if you have used Genki a little etc) That you can piece togther very simple sentences very fast.

Such as

私はテレビを見ます。

私 = watashi - I
見 - mi(ru) - to see

(I watch television).

Dont be afraid to learn "plain" japanese either, it is way more natural and many sites do focus on it first. You need to know the differnces.

I reccomend the Remembering the Kana also, it takes about 1 week each to learn hiragana and Katakana which is Vital. Furigana (kana above Kanji) helps to learn readings etc later on. http://www.timwerx.net is fantastic for teaching you basics.

Such as:
私はテレビを見る。
I watch Television.

But notice how it is slightly different?

I have been asking laltly what to do after RTK1. There are many plans out there i think i will go with AJATT which basically means going out there and getting thousands of sentences to "mine". Doing everything you can in Japanese, such as play games in Japanese, change your OS language to Japanese etc These forums will help you understand all that

Get a SRS too, Anki is popular. You can download a Heisig deck and start to work on the Kanji you reconise.

Get a HUGE pad paper too to scribble your Kanji down. After a while, it will be second nature.

At 25 Kanji a day with RTK1, it is said to take around 6 months. That really is NOT long for 2000 kanji, and it is possible. Then you can focus on readings.

I agree with Jav on not stopping learning Japanese. I find it atually helped. I use Genki, JPOD101, Japanese From Zero 1,2,3 and some Grammar books. Just remember to sey aside 30-1 hour a day for Hesig, and focus just on that in that time scale, dont get distracted.

if you have an iPhone, there are loads of apps out there which are fantastic to learn phrases.

[jaypunkrawk]

Thanks for the Reviewing the Kanji link. I didn't know that existed. It looks similar in style and essence to Anki, which I also have and use and is, as mentioned before, another great resource.

[Javizy]

As far as i can see it looks like i would be better in just learning as much of the language first then come back to the Kanji at a later stage.

Its harder for me as i,m not constantly talking to Japanese speaking people here in Australia, most asians here are Chinese and would probably be easier to learn as i would be able to speak with them on a daily basis.

Its also awkward to enroll your self for courses as most of the newbie lessons are held closer to the city of Melbourne.

Anyway thanks again i will just keep battling along.

Kanpai Ian

I'd really recommend against putting off kanji. After you've given yourself a good grounding in kana, you should start some sort of kanji study, even if it's a few characters a day. No matter what sort of methods you're using, it's going to take a long time, and you'll regret not having started sooner. It's also hugely beneficial to your overall progression.

You can find penpals to chat with using Skype or whatever online through a number of sites. If you find a Japanese person learning English, then they'll appreciate all your questions about the language if they're in the same boat.

As for classes, I wouldn't worry too much. Self-study allows you to set whatever pace, go into as much detail, and review to the extent you want. You just need to find some good resources that don't leave you asking questions.

[Belton]

As for classes, I wouldn't worry too much. Self-study allows you to set whatever pace, go into as much detail, and review to the extent you want. You just need to find some good resources that don't leave you asking questions.

Classes can be a strange experience for an adult not in a school / college / certification system. And sometimes frustratingly slow for a self motivated learner, especially (outside Japan) in a relatively niche language like Japanese where there usually aren't enough classes on offer to jump to higher levels within a school, or take many classes per week.

But there are some aspects of a class that are worth trying to find in some way. Someone who can reliably correct your mistakes, some people to share the learning experience with, regularity.

The most important is finding someone to correct you. You will make lots of mistakes and will often not realise it. You need someone to correct you so these mistakes won't become a habit that is hard to unlearn. So it's worth finding a language tandem partner (bit different from a penfriend etc. ) maybe through a site like the mixxer. They guide and correct your Japanese and in turn you guide and correct their English.

I would also recommend learning some kanji by whatever methods work for you. If you know a kanji use it when you can. Become used to them. Pace yourself. I'm not a fan of Heisig's book mainly because of his writing style and tone. *However* using mnemonics and breaking the kanji down into components in a systematic way is a powerful way to learn kanji which I'd recommend you try.
Get the concept from the free extract, get the order and more ideas (better ideas?) for stories from the Review the Kanji site. (And don't confuse "stories" with the actual meanings and etymology of the kanji and radicals)
If it doesn't work or becomes frustrating try other books or methods, take a break. I don't think anything you learn will be wasted effort.

[jaboyak]

Honestly, finding a penpal is incredibly important, especially if you're a self study. They're going to be there to correct all of your mistakes and answer any questions that you have for them. I started out as a self-study and I talked to my penpal very often and she helped me tremendously on the little unsaid meaning rules when saying stuff that you won't get out of the textbook. Later on, though, I changed my minor to Japanese and started taking classes. Having done both, while self-study was a little less stressful, having a teacher from Japan is also very helpful. ^_^

Either way, good luck. がんばってね！