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how to learn kanji?

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Saiyan
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how to learn kanji?

Postby Saiyan » September 5th, 2008 7:01 am

I am planning to start learning kanji from today onwards, and need some advice. I am in no hurry to learn the joyuu set in 3 months or something like that.

so should i start by first learning only the kanji, its meaning and readings and leave the compound words for later? or should i learn everything - kanji, meaning, readings, compounds?

untmdsprt
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Postby untmdsprt » September 5th, 2008 8:05 am

I usually learn kanji as part of the word. I've been trying to learn the word first and then its kanji. For example I've learned the city where I'm living as Yokohama, then よこはま, and finally as 横浜. Only recently have I learned よこ (横) as width. Maybe eventually I'll learn はま and its other meanings, but right now, there's not a need.

Does this help?

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Saiyan
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Postby Saiyan » September 5th, 2008 8:32 am

well i understood the method you follow, but i don't think that will help me somehow. right now, i am learning kanji in a view to cover the lists set for the JLPTs. Even if I go at 10 kanji per day, I can finish the joyuu set in 7 months or so? And I don't plan on taking the JLPT lvl 4 at least until 2010. So by that time I will have learnt more than 3000 kanji. my only doubt is, should i learn just the 3000 kanji first or the 3000 kanji along with their compounds?

untmdsprt
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Postby untmdsprt » September 5th, 2008 9:55 am

3000? You only need 100 for level 4. I suggest you concentrate on grammar and vocabulary instead of all kanji if you only plan to take level 4. You'd be better off.

Saiyan
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Postby Saiyan » September 5th, 2008 11:01 am

sorry i didn't make myself clear. anyway i don't want to confuse anyone. so can you please pick an option out of two: only meaning and readings or meaning, readings, compounds?

His_Royal_Mudge
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Postby His_Royal_Mudge » September 5th, 2008 12:04 pm

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Last edited by His_Royal_Mudge on September 5th, 2008 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Javizy
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Postby Javizy » September 5th, 2008 12:14 pm

I'd recommend learning the jouyou kanji as quickly as possible, you can worry about focusing on whatever ones are used for the JLPT closer to the time. Knowing kanji, even just the meanings, makes learning vocabulary a lot easier.

There are various approaches to learning them, but I think the most efficient and secure (in terms of not forgetting them) method, in the long-term, involves first using the Heisig method. It's an excellent mnemonic system begins by teaching you simple characters and radicals that are then used as the building blocks for the more complicated ones. What begins as a mass of 21 strokes, can actually be simplified to 3 radicals put together that you know inside out. PM me and I might be able to give you a copy of the book.

As for the readings, you can pick many up "organically" as you learn new words, and read text containing kanji, if you have a kanji dictionary or a kana transcript (the PDF's on this site are great if you're a beginner). That's the main reason learning the meaning/writings ASAP will be especially effective, since she won't remember readings for characters you don't know. So sticking to a set of 100 JLPT characters is going to be 95% detrimental in the long run.

One other extremely effective method, that I've been focusing on lately, is by reviewing full sentences using SRS recognition. You see the sentences in full kanji and attempt to read them, then for the answer you have the reading and definition of words you don't know. This way you're forced to remember readings, while also being provided with a context that helps you learn to use the words and grammar in the sentence correctly, so it's effective on all fronts. I think QuakingShoe could provide you with more information, but you'll first want to get a copy of Anki, which is free. I know there's a guy who claimed to do this with 10,000 sentences, which allowed him to read fluently within 18 months.

QuackingShoe
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Postby QuackingShoe » September 5th, 2008 3:07 pm

Since I've been called out, I'll go ahead and throw my support behind this.

I definitely recommend trying Heisig. It's not very everyone, blah blah, etc etc, disclaimer disclaimer, but honestly it helped me immeasurably. In about three and a half months (with an unfortunate number of stalls) I now know how to write and recognize every jouyou kanji, and have a loose English definition attached to them. The usefulness of this is profound.

Already knowing how to write and recognize the kanji makes learning readings attached to them and words using them incredibly easy; in fact, I've found that it makes learning words much easier than it would otherwise be. I actually become upset when I have to learn vocabulary that doesn't have any kanji, because I know I won't remember it as well. Kanji are that beneficial, but only if you can truly recognize them already

A key advantage of learning these characters from the bottom up (by components), as Javizy mentioned, that you come to realize very quickly after you finish, is just how easy it makes it to learn kanji outside of the jouyou set. I've learned several non-standard kanji now, and I've learned them by simply looking at them once. It really is that useful, and it also highlights how ineffective the traditional method the Japanese themselves are taught kanji by really is. For instance, I've been told by a Japanese girl that 凄 (used in sugoi) is a kanji they don't use that often because it's 'hard'. I want to put this into context for you. The right side of this kanji is 妻, which means basically 'spouse,' and is a common kanji in a number of words and gets a good level of use. It's a jouyou kanji and every Japanese person knows how to write it. 凄 is the exact same thing, with the simple addition of two dots. That simple realization is enough for me to remember forever a kanji that is considered 'hard' simply because it's less common and traditionally learned as merely a mass of strokes with no consideration for it's internal pieces. Similarly, 塾 (cram school), which is a jouyou kanji, is apparently widely considered to be difficult to write, but it's made out of three simple components and just, simply, isn't.

Flashcarding sentences is also a useful method while you're attempting the language proper. It's based on the idea that you learn a language not as a bunch of words, but as a bunch of phrases, so, rather than words, you drill phrases. I've found it useful. Strictly speaking, the benefit of SRSing sentences could be made up outside of an SRS by simply reading a lot more, but the SRS has additional benefits as well. It lets you see phrases and words that you might not see very often outside of the SRS, and is a way to concretely test your recognition of words written in kanji. I also find that, personally, the actual act of inserting a sentence into an SRS prompts me to actually focus on it and it's vocabulary in a way that I don't generally otherwise.

However, what really makes it useful for me, is that you can drill the sentences both ways. That is to say, not only from a sentence in kanji to the same sentence written in kana, but from kana to kanji as well. This gives you extra associations built in your mind, which is nice, but most importantly it makes sure you REALLY know which kanji go with which word, and tests your ability to write them out. There are a very many words that I would be able to recognize on sight but not actually write out if it wasn't for this. That's something that's important to me.

Saiyan
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Postby Saiyan » September 6th, 2008 2:03 am

ありがっと!

This advice is very valuable indeed. I will indeed try out these techniques. Learning the joyuu set to perfection i n3 and a half months is cool. I would also like to achieve that soon.

QuackingShoe
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Postby QuackingShoe » September 6th, 2008 4:49 am

So as not to spread the wrong idea, I just want to quickly re-emphasize that it's 'just' the writing and meaning of the kanji that were done in this time, not the readings, and that three and a half months is just my time. People seem to vary from around a month to around a year depending on just what kind of pace they can cope with.

Anyway, I say 'just' because that's still really valuable, and picking up readings through vocabulary afterward is again pretty easy. In the month-ish since I finished Heisig I've picked up a minimum of one reading for a minimum of 560 kanji, 31 of which are non-jouyou, according to my Anki statistic where I store sentences. I find it comfortably rapid, since now that I've moved on to more enjoyable activities than pure kanji writing study, where I'm actually learning the language instead of just the writing system, I've become more leisurely about the whole learning process in general (I have one particular manga series I've been pulling sentences out of, and everything else is just straight-forward enjoyment/practice with no strings).

I recommend www.kanji.koohii.com in conjunction with Heisig.

Saiyan
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Postby Saiyan » September 6th, 2008 6:54 am

I got a sample of the Heisig book and it looks pretty interesting. Just one doubt thought. Actually, 2 doubts.

1. Why doesn't the book give the readings?
2. Does it cover the entire Jouyou set?

Psy
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Postby Psy » September 6th, 2008 8:03 am

1. This is answered in the introduction: Because learning more than what is provided at one time was found to be so much more difficult that it ends up inhibiting the student's ability to memorize the shapes of the characters effectively. The value of knowing the characters for their only their shapes is where real controversy lies with the method.

2. It does and a few extra.
High time to finish what I've started. || Anki vocabulary drive: 5,000/10k. Restart coming soon. || Dig my Road to Katakana tutorial on the App store.

Saiyan
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Postby Saiyan » September 6th, 2008 9:08 am

ありがっと Psy-さん,

So many experienced learners can't be wrong, so I'll follow this method too!

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