Can you claim "native level" if you achieved JLPT

[cloneofsnake]

I just had an internal interview yesterday for a job that needs to communicate with our Japan branch. It's like the PERFECT job I want and on top of that, I get to work with our Japan office and be flown to Tokyo once every quarter...

Unfortunately... they require a native speaker...

So, I've decided that I really need to take Japanese studies seriously and take JLPT by the end of this year. I'm thinking about 2kyuu... I think with the proper training, I can do it. (I have a whole year ahead of me!)

Here's may be a silly question, if I just use the premium content of JPod101, plus the past exams (jlpt.info)... do you think it's enough for me to pass 2 kyuu?

[JohnCBriggs]

Cloneofsnakeさん,
Congratulations on the opportunity. It sounds interesting.

Regarding the materials in the learning center, I think these are very poor preparation for the JLPT. You will need to get the old tests and one or more books on grammar. If you are interested, I can tell you the name of the one I used for ３きゅう when I get home. It was very good and I think they make a 2きゅう book too.
Also, there are some great websites like JLPT.renshuu.org that have vocab quizzes for free.
I think JPOD is most useful for the Listening Comprehension part of the test.
じゃ　また
ジョン

[Bueller_007]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but regardless of what laanguage you're talking about "native speaker" usually means "native speaker". I could probably pass JLPT level 1 now, and I am a FAR, FAR cry from being anywhere close to a native speaker.
I can (in theory) read about as well as an average high school grad. That's really all the JLPT tests.

[annie]

and since Bueller-san doesn't really break down "native speaker" it should always means "someone who was born and raised speaking the language"

You'll often see positions for University Japanese teachers looking for someone with native or near-native fluency.

If you want to pass JLPT 2kyu, japanesepod101 alone isn't going to do it for you. The tests are heavily reading/writing and grammar based, and you really need to focus your studies there. There's another post with reccommended resources, check there and pick up some of those books. (I don't know what your level is at now, but I'd suggest progressing through Genki 1 & 2, then Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese, and then hit the JLPT test prep books)

Honestly, I took three and a half years of University Japanese, including a year in Japan, and I don't think that alone would have prepared me for 2kyu.

Additionally, JLPT tests don't test your ability to communicate at all.

Good Luck. If your a goal-oriented person, JLPT tests can be a good motivator for serious study.

[Belton]

IMHO,

The best a non-native can achieve is "fluent". Able to fully participate at an adult level but still can make some slips that would show that they aren't a native speaker.

It takes time to learn any language and there are no real shortcuts. It just takes time for memories to form and to use a language on an unconscious level.

According to the US State Department it takes 2,200 class hours to become proficient at Japanese, one of the 5 most difficult languages. (These are the figures they use in training diplomats etc.) Over a year if you do it 40 hours a week as a full time job. I'm not sure what proficient is on the scale but I'm sure it's below fluent.

JLPT2 takes a cumulative 1050 classroom hours according to their figures. (Although I think the timings on the early levels are a bit off). And this says nothing about preparation and study outside of class.
And because of the nature of the test it really only says something about reading ability, it's quite passive.

I don't want to burst your bubble, and you shouldn't let anyone tell you what you can't do. But you should be aware that you've set yourself a difficult task. But it'll never get easier, so start today. If you don't make it this time you'll be in a better position next time.

--edit--
for stupid spelling mistakes. (Is this really my native language!?)

[tiroth2]

Good comments from everyone. I would say "native" fluency isn't impossibile, just highly improbable. I had a Japanese professor (the only white guy in the department!) who probably spoke better Japanese than some natives. Of course, he also

1. has been studying for 40 years, and is a professor of Japanese
2. lived in Japan for many many years
3. Is married to a Japanese woman

I'm sure he still would lack knowledge about certain cultural understanding items, especially things that come from the shared experiences of going through the Japanese elementary schools, etc. Those kinds of things likely have no connection to one's professional life though.

I guess this is a long-winded way to say "it's not impossible, but plan on living in Japan for 10+ years AFTER you pass 1-kyuu if you want a shot."

On the flipside, my instructor has been here 7-8 years and is married to an American. Her English is excellent but you'd never mistake her for a native speaker.

[cloneofsnake]

Thank you so much for everyone's reply! (They're all kind replies too! Very unusual on the web! )

Also, thanks for the books / study materials suggestions. You know what? I think I'll take this chance to make a compiled list of study materials and post it on here as a new topic.

For this position, I think all 4 skills - Speaking, Listening, Reading, Writing - are all important. Well, there're a lot of competition, (as expected! Comm'on, travel to Tokyo 4x a year??!) so I am pretty much out of luck here... But I'm not giving up on studying yet! I've hired a Japanese tutor here for a one time, Japanese business crash course + mock interview. Meeting her tonight in Upper East Side. Hopefully, she can give me an answer as to what level I'm at.

Oh, anyone knows a good way to find Japanese speaking partners? I remember reading about some lanuage exchange through Skype on one of the earlier JPOD lessons... I can't find it anymore though I'm thinking about posting up wanted ads at local JAS mart. I figure, there has got to be some Japanese business men on exchange here from Japan, who wants to practice speaking English...

[Belton]

Oh, anyone knows a good way to find Japanese speaking partners? I remember reading about some lanuage exchange through Skype on one of the earlier JPOD lessons... I can't find it anymore though

I think Liz-san posted it originally. I can't find it anymore either.
It's the Mixxer Exchange
http://www.language-exchanges.org/
Skype orientated. Place an ad. Reply to ads.
It's really good.
Maybe these things can be hit or miss but I found a language partner here.

Also try
http://www.japan-guide.com/
where you might have better luck finding someone for face to face exchange if you are in a large city. (NYC isn't it? )

[NickT]

I am in a similar position to you. I saw a job advertised internally at my current company for a Japanese speaker. I had never given it a thought before, but in a large-ish company (~3000 people) there is 1, maybe two jobs going that need Japanese language skills. And apparently there is not a single person here that can speak Japanese.

I contacted them to clarify what they meant by "Japanese speaker", as native speaker effectively means born and raised nihonjin, and is a million miles away from JLPT 1,2 which is attainable. They never really gave me a proper answer, but they implied that I should come back when I have passed JLPT level 2 and we can talk about it. This is what I am trying to do at the moment, and is my goal for the next year or two. Even if I don't ever get the job, which frankly is quite likely, at least I will have achieved something. It has helped motivate me to study anyway, which is a good thing in itself.

[cloneofsnake]

It's been almost 2 months since I first posted this thread. Afterwards, I actually got 2 Japanese interviews and one written email test. Passed the 1st interview, but most likely failed the 2nd one. I wonder if it's normal, but I find it harder to communicate with a male than a female... a Japanese software developer (a guy) gave me the 2nd interview, and it was all about technical topics. I had a hard time understanding what he was saying!

Anyway, in case anyone out there is interested, I posted some terms that I thought I might use during the interview here.

Since then, I've been going back to more JPod101 studying. As you can see, I basically just use my blog as my notes. As I listen to JPod101's lessons, I wrote down what I learned. I was also able to find a couple of Skype users to talk to through the language-exchange and xLingo. (Too bad both are female though. I really need to find some male speakers! )

[Garyuchin]

"According to the US State Department it takes 2,200 class hours to become proficient at Japanese,..."

うあいい　ヤッタ　自分は今このような馬鹿者を感じません

この手紙の半分が翻訳プログラムを使って書かれる

I have left この手紙の半分 as the translator gave it, but I'm not convinced that is right - half moon is definitely 半分の月　(or 半月)　so shouldn't "half this letter" follow the same order?

And I am fairly sure that 書かれる has the wrong ending for the present perfect, even without the problem of (what seems to me to be) the plain ending.

Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.... (and if this is the wrong forum: ごめんなさい

[michaelkane]

IMHO,

There are two ways to get native Japanese language proficiency.

1. You need to adapt changes in your personality as that of Japanese people, or some aspects of the language or culture will be hard to replicate by you.

2. Forget everything you know about other cultures; the Japanese culture comes from very humble personality and you will really have to be born like a child inside their community so they mold you like a Japanese person.

All I am saying is it is more about absorbing the culture, then by experiencing it. The more you absorb it, the more you will be like a native person. However, other culture experiences if you are non-native Japanese will conflict it.

>> I am not an expert of course. just my 2 pennies.

[Elfunko]

I completely agree with teh above poster. Japanese is a more abstract language that western ones, meaning put more into nuance and subtleties than into long strung out sentences. Theres a reason a 3 word Japanese sentence can turn into a 7 word English sentence. If you want to achieve native fluency its gonna be a loooooong road and a whole farkload more time than the state departments 2,200 hours estimate. Think of it like this, how many years did it take you to start writing decent reports, stories, letters, etc in English? Maybe 15 or so right, from birth. And in that period in school you read so many examples, different types of information, and then take all of that experience and turn it into a story to be told with some resemblance of style, not to mention when you first discovered passives. Now think of trying to do that in Japanese. I'm no where near close to where I want to be, fluent, but I realize the time and hard work its gonna take. You learn, you forget, same with anything humans try in, but with long hard practice it can be achieved.

And remember, fluent in professional japanese is a long cry from fluent in every aspect and topic that might arise in Japanese. Focus on what your goal is, and then add in the icing on the cake that is those other topics, small talk, etc. Good luck mang.

[genjin]

I think that this is a wonderful topic. I think that arguments can be made both ways as to whether a foreign born individual can achieve native fluency in a language. Personally, as an ESL teacher and Japanese student I think that it is possible but highly unusual. I have met foreign born individuals who have achieved native fluency in English so I don't see why it would be impossible in Japanese either. My Japanese Lit. professor in college was the first non-japanese admitted to Tokyo University as an undergrad and a confidant and translator for two famous authors, Mishima-Sensei and Oe-sensei. I suspect that he had achieved native fluency after 25+ years living in Japan and a PhD in Japanese Lit.

Either way, I think the moral of the story is follow your heart and ganbare!

[Elfunko]

Exactly. But just remember, translators and authors are masters of a craft, a skill, that took years to develop. You wont achieve the same results in just a few years. However, what you can achieve in a few years is dependent on how hard you work.