Personal language barrier with Japanese politeness

[Charles]

This is not the language I thought it would be. I want everyone to be on the same level. Even in the West, I know that's not always the case, but I dream in that direction.

"Everyone on the same level", how unbearably boring... The 20th century saw the decay of the class system in the Western world but luckily that will never be more than a formality. Introducing gender neutrality with 'he' and 'she' in English-language books is just another ugly politically correct act (along with 'Season's Greetings' instead of 'Merry Christmas'), totally uncalled for by the language itself. Japanese is lucky is still have its keigo, beautiful and crystal-clear. What is wrong with paying respect where respect is due?

Nothing, but it is interesting you frame the question this way. It seems my problem is more to do with judging where respect is actually due. Age is the prime example. I don't think people who are younger deserve less respect. Talking "down" to children as a rule really rubs me the wrong the way.

The Japanese educational system is endemic to the language. I thought we had a hard line age segregation in America, but it appears even stronger there. I have very very deep misgivings about that.

I went to a Montessori school for preschool and kindergarten. I was on a first-name basis with my teacher and we spoke on the same level. I was also in the same room with students who were older than I was and, although they were ahead of me in learning, we nonetheless learned side-by-side. This was far from boring. Indeed, I think it was the happiest and most extraordinarily interesting time of my life, much more interesting than college. Because people who knew more than I did were my social peers, I had no barriers to accelerating to my learning, if I wanted to, and I did. I learned how to write cursive by the time I was five, years ahead of everybody in the conventional age-segregated system.

Although I did not stay in Montessori, it had a great impact on me and establishing a lifelong love of learning. So I must dispel the notion that offering the same level of respect to every unfamiliar person is boring. I do of course understand the differences in speech in the familiar case, but the means by which familiarity is established is something else.

[Outkast]

Plus, the flip-side to a language that obsesses over politeness means that you can also be ultra-rude.

ええやな？

[JonB]

when one of my staff complained about a member of the help desk team because when they spoke to people on the phone that they were rude. This coming from not using the right keigo I guess.

The interesting thing is that although he is Japanese most of his educational years were spent in the most of his educational years in the US.

And I most certainly do use "oi budge up a bit" to a suit on the train... It amazes me how a Japanese guy 2/3 of of my size takes up 1.5 seats on the train and expects me to use 1/2!!!

To quote Barry Eisler - "those of you that think Japanese are a polite society have never been on the Yamanote line in the rush hour"

[laughinghyena21]

Is there a site that I can read with stuff like this? This is so overwhelming at the same time, exciting as well.

[annie]

It seems my problem is more to do with judging where respect is actually due. Age is the prime example. I don't think people who are younger deserve less respect. Talking "down" to children as a rule really rubs me the wrong the way.

The Japanese educational system is endemic to the language. I thought we had a hard line age segregation in America, but it appears even stronger there. I have very very deep misgivings about that.

I went to a Montessori school for preschool and kindergarten. I was on a first-name basis with my teacher and we spoke on the same level. I was also in the same room with students who were older than I was and, although they were ahead of me in learning, we nonetheless learned side-by-side. This was far from boring. Indeed, I think it was the happiest and most extraordinarily interesting time of my life, much more interesting than college. Because people who knew more than I did were my social peers, I had no barriers to accelerating to my learning, if I wanted to, and I did. I learned how to write cursive by the time I was five, years ahead of everybody in the conventional age-segregated system.

Although I did not stay in Montessori, it had a great impact on me and establishing a lifelong love of learning. So I must dispel the notion that offering the same level of respect to every unfamiliar person is boring. I do of course understand the differences in speech in the familiar case, but the means by which familiarity is established is something else.

I think that respecting someone should have a lot more to do with how you treat them, not the words that you use when talking about them.

Actually, one of the failings of learning Japanese at a Quaker school is that we never really learned keigo.

But then, most Japanese kids can't use it properly either.